Eamonn

The proses works well when all the guide lines are followed and the rules are adhered too. At the end of the election, the only people who know the outcome are the SM and the OA rep. The votes have been cast and stands. It can not be changed. The Boys who compared notes are out of line and have demonstrated that they need a hand understanding what Trustworthy really means. If something is not right then it needs to be brought to the attention of the people in charge. However information bases on second hand heresy and the word of people who are not part of the proses and little or nothing to do with the election would not carry any weight with me. Eamonn.

While the details of why you stood down and how you were treated are yours, and I don't think this is yet the time or the place to go into them. I was overjoyed to see you back!! I do have a problem with people trying to do things behind the scenes. Many years ago my old Scoutmaster was forced to leave Scouting under a very big black cloud. He was an outstanding leader who ran an outstanding troop. He was dumb enough to break the rules and that was the end of him. I really loved this man and really did hero worship him. When I took over the troop, I would meet him after the meeting in the local pub. At first I looked to him for his help and advise, over time I started to see that he was running the Troop from a bar stool. In time I became my own leader and didn't follow his every word. Once that started we began to drift apart. He began to resent that I wasn't following his advise and I began to resent the fact that he was still trying to be the leader. Over time I developed my own "Leadership Team" most know my old SM, but had never had anything to do with him. It took a little while for the Troop to become the powerhouse that it once was and I am thankful to him not only for the things that he did right when he was SM, but also for the things that he done wrong I learned a lot from both. Sad to say our friendship did suffer and today we just exchange cards at Christmas. Laurie, you know what I have said about going out there and holding your head high. If not in the District that you are in maybe the District next door is looking for someone with your many talents. I know that the District that I'm in would welcome you with open arms and you could expect a big hug from me. Go ahead let your little light shine, be the beacon on the hill. Leave the Turkeys down in the dirt and fly with the Eagles. I know you can dazzle them with your commitment and love of Cub Scouting. Still you will do what you think is best and I'm glad to see you back. Your Pal Eamonn.

Saturday, 3/19/2005: 9:57:38 PM "A mother from another troop had already mentioned that the "talk" was that the mother of the child pitched a fit and insisted that her son be inducted." Sunday, 3/20/2005: 8:27:53 AM "The mother is the SM." This is still gossip and is not the behaviour that a Scoutmaster should be displaying. If she feels that something was done wrongly she ought to go to the people who are at fault not go gossiping to everyone and causing harm to a youth member. The fact that this person is the SM only makes it far worse. Eamonn

I don't know how things are run in other parts of the country? But to the best of my knowledge the unit elections in our Council are supervised by an OA Representative from another Troop. The Ballot and the results are known only to: The SM, the OA Rep and the person that he reports. The votes and who voted for who are not supposed to be shared. As for "A mother from another troop had already mentioned that the "talk" was that " This in nothing but pure out and out gossip and should be looked upon as such. In fact I think it is gossip at its very worst, it is harming a boy in our program. Cyndi you have no choice but to ignore this completely and if possible tell the people who are doing the "Talk" that the Boy Scouts Of America and the Leaders do not take notice of the "Talk" as it is not Kind, is not Trustworthy and goes against the Boy Scout Oath and Law. You need to explain this to any Scout that would ask. Gossip causes more harm to our program than almost anything else. Eamonn

The new course is not so new anymore and it will undergo a few changes in 2006 / 2007. Some of this is just moving things around a little. Diversity will move to the first part of the course. The license to use the Ken Blanchard material runs out, so there will be new terminology and graphics. I think the course has served us well. The transition from what we had to what we now have went far better and a lot easier than I thought it would. Wood Badge is still a very special place, I am sure it always will be. While joining a Patrol and living together, working together as part of a team will always be the best part and for a lot of people (Not all) the writing of the Ticket is the worst. What part of the course did you enjoy the most? What part of the course did you not enjoy? What part of the course do you find yourself using the most? To get the ball rolling. I really thought that the camp fire material was great. I of course can't say which story or I might ruin it for the participants yet to come. I am not keen on the win all you can. Of all the good stuff that I took home and there was plenty, the thing I now find myself thinking about and using the most is listening. It really has changed me a lot, I now really try to look for the message and listen to understand. It goes without saying that OJ would disagree, but as ever he is wrong!! There are no right or wrong answers. Think of this as an on line reflection. Eamonn

Yes Beav 2006 should be a lot less hectic. I have been asked if I would QM at a Wood Badge course? It has put me in at a sticky wicket. The course will if all goes well be hosted by my home Council. I kinda, sorta selected the Course Director, we had both served on the old Cub Scout course. She is a wonderful Lady and I know that she will do a wonderful job. She was one of the ASM's for me. She will need to serve as a Troop Guide before she can be the Course Director. Which of course means that she needs to do it this year. Our Council is part of a cluster for Wood Badge, I know the Course Director for this years course really well. He was to have had this years course two years ago but it never got off the ground due to not enough participants. His Council is a very small Council and three years ago the very small Council next door hosted a course, taking a fair number of participants from his Council. At this time the Council is looking at merging with yet another Council they are not part of our cluster and they also have a Course in 2005. My fear is that either one course will not get enough participants or if they are really unlucky neither course will reach the required number of participants. In which case she would not get the Troop Guide experience that she needs. I think to keep within the rules I can only return to the Happy Land as a course mentor. However the Area President wants him and I to be Quartermasters. I had him as my QM and he wants to learn how to do it right. I don't have a problem going back as a mentor, I do think I would have to decline anything else as it would be breaking the rules. I do think that the rule is wrong, but I am really happy to see more and more real?? Scouter's being invited to serve on staff and not the same old Wood Badge staffing "Crew". Who did nothing else but Wood Badge. As to the important stuff I am not keen on cherry bug juice - How about one of the other red ones? Eamonn.

Hi Kristi, Much as it pains me to have to say it. You are out of order. There is no such animal in the BSA as a temp committee. Before you waste your time polling Parents and stirring them up, you need to see the unit Charter. While District Commissioners have been known to be wrong and at times talk through their hats, I find it odd that one of the people in the District that has a lot to do with charters would stand up and state something which you say is wrong. Please take my word for it there is a pack committee, if there wasn't there would be no pack. I of course don't know when the pack recharters? If the charter has just gone in the changes may have been made and he could be a member of the pack committee, or the Pack Committee Chairman. As a Den Leader your job is leading the Den, getting caught up in what is happening with the Pack Committee and fighting with this man, is not serving the boys in your den. If you feel that there has been some mistake or that the Charter has been allowed to go through without the correct signatures, the Council Registrar needs to be notified either by the COR or the Executive Officer. The same thing is true if a change of position went through, it would have required a new application with the correct signatures. Reading the very large print between the lines, it does seem that you don't like this man very much. However it does seem that there are others who do not share this. In order to be awarded the District Award of Merit, which is the highest award a District can present to a individual, he had to be nominated and then the committee that selects those who will receive the award have to select him. I find it odd that he was asked to Direct Day Camp for five years if he is as bad as you have painted him? While I'm sure that you feel what you are doing is in the best interests of the boys. I strongly suggest that you slow down. Take a long hard look at the Scout Oath and Law, double check that everything that you are doing and want to do falls within the boundaries of the Oath and Law and then check again!! While it is not in black and white there is in Scouting floating around an idea that if we can't say something good about someone the best thing to do is say nothing. Save your conversation with the parents, no matter how you go about it, there is no way it is covered by the Oath and Law. You might ask the CO if they could check on the Unit Charter and see who is down as doing what. While you are talking with the CO you might want to suggest that it is time to think about forming a Nominating Committee you could offer to serve on the Nominating Committee. Once this committee has met and selected people that could serve you again could offer to one of the asking team. This is when you meet with people face to face, not to bring someone down but in the hope of building something which is good and worth while up. Eamonn.

Taking another look at Prairie_Scouter's original posting: Prairie_Scouter "I've heard that the Board is mostly a figurehead, and the real decisions are made by some sub-committee that makes up all these policies. True? Close? " I don't serve on any of the National Boards I do know several people that do. The people I know are no dummies. One who is a very dear and close friend has a PhD. He is a very gifted, talented and generous chap. He has been in the BSA for a very long time. I don't know if he was a Cub Scout, I do know that he was a Boy Scout involved with the OA, worked on Summer camp staff, served at the unit, district and Council level and is a past Council President. He is a very intelligent person.I am sure that he thinks for himself, he has served on committees that have made a difference in the BSA. I don't know if it is possible for him to be unbiased? Part of me thinks that he has been in Scouting (BSA) for such a long time and he has such a love for this organization that this will cloud his thinking. Yes he does serve on sub committees that put a lot of time and effort into coming up with ideas,and motions that will end up being voted on at the National Committee meeting and yes by the time it gets there it is as a rule a quick vote that will pass the motion.It would be very wrong to belittle the work done by these Sub-committees, they spent an enormous amount of time working on what they are looking at and I have been told that their make up is that the members are a diverse group. If I were to find fault it would have to be that the members do tend to be older and because of the expense involved in traveling and so on, many are fairly affluent. Prairie_Scouter: " I've heard stories about the Mormons forcing the issue at some point." I am not a member of the Mormon Church, in fact I know very little about the Mormon Religion. A fact that I'm not proud of. It does seem that the Mormons are the whipping boy's for anyone or any group that wants to point the finger about the BSA being a right wing Christen organization. Sure the LDS Church is an active supporter of Scouting and the BSA. It is not the largest Chartered Partner that we have. I will post the numbers when I find them. It is worth remembering that the LDS Church chose the BSA, because the church and the BSA share the same values. A good friend of mine in the UK is a member of the LDS Church and while I'm a little unsure what his title is, he represents the church at some level to the Scout Association, when the Scout Association (UK) chose to allow Homosexuals in, the church was not overjoyed, but the Catholics and a good number of other Churches were none too happy. While some adults did quit as a protest there has not been a mass of units closing. Prairie_Scouter "How could change be enacted within BSA, if there was a desire to do so?" There would be a vote at a National meeting. The desire would be the part that would take time. Talking for myself and myself alone. If God was taken out of Scouting completely, I would question my involvement in the BSA. I think it is at the core of everything we do. I am definitely not by any means a right wing Bible thumper. Just a run of the mill everyday Irish Roman Catholic, who one day would like to get through the gates of Heaven. If the BSA were to allow people or units the choice, I could live with that. We have lived with the Learning For Life program. I wouldn't want to join a unit like that. I feel much the same way about the homosexual thing. Still the way things are now I signed up in the BSA knowing the rules, no one twisted my arm. I understand that if I don't play this game by the rules the BSA has every right to revoke my membership.If the BSA were to decide to do something that I was unable to live with, I can at almost any time pack my bags, withdraw my support and go elsewhere. I like to think that my service is useful to the BSA and my community, I do know that I get far more out than I put in. Still I do understand that there are some people who are unhappy with the BSA, I don't understand why they just don't find an organization that they like? I will leave the legal stuff to the attorneys and the courts. Eamonn.

What is with this "Revisiting" bit? You know that I get confused without much effort. As you are aware I do for the most part share your take on Scouts and Scouting. In fact during your absence I was at one point asked if I was you? I made a joke about it, however I took it as a compliment. While the forum is a wonderful place to exchange ideas, look at things from a view point that differs from the one that we might hold. Most times the people who post never become close. A lot of the time we never know very much about the other people in the forum. Sure I might say I am a lot of things and have done a lot of things, but who really knows? I think that I have been very fortunate, during the time that I have been posting here I have got to really know several of the "Regulars" and have got close enough to be able to call them friends. To the best of my knowledge I have never met anyone who posts here regularly in person. When I first came on board I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would end up making friends or being close to the other people in the forum. I am really looking forward to meeting and putting faces to the people who will be at the Jambo, heck it will be nice to find out what their real name is!! Terry our host along with Hops and OGE do a wonderful job of allowing us to meet here and do what we do without any un-needed interference. Sure there have been some dark days, will we ever forget them? I don't think so. I do hope that we all learned something from them. Maybe we know how the backspace key works? Maybe we know that if someone is a real twit that the ignore this user what-ever-it's called is the way to go!! So far I have only used it twice. Welcome back,I hope this revisit turns out to be a long revisit. Eamonn

Peter Applebome,in Scout's Honor does try to look at some of these questions and he has given his take when he tries to provide answers. I was schooled (Educated might be too strong a term) in England. I love English History, in fact I taught it for a while. When I was in School English History was very slanted and very pro-Britain and the British Empire, so much so that we were taught that the "Sun never went down on the empire" We never spent much time looking at places where we got our butts kicked but we as students were made feel good about places were we taught the natives how to play cricket and read the Bible. Being as the Americas were settled by people who came here in the first place to get away from how we thought they should read the Bible and cricket never caught on, American history was skipped over at a great rate of knots. My take on the BSA and it is just my take. Scouting type programs were springing up all over the place in the early 1900's. In England we had the Boy's Brigade (BP was a member) The Church Lads Brigade. Of course Ernest Thompson Seton (Who was born in England) and his The Woodcraft Indians. He in fact ran camps for boys in the UK before BP did his thing at Brownsea. Seaton had some unconventional approaches that were quite different than the rather preachy Boys' Brigade or the more regimented Boy Scouts that Baden-Powell was to organize. Seaton did not want the organization used for over moral indoctrination although he felt that an experience with nature would have a kind of cathartic impact upon the soul. The Woodcraft Indians lacked a supervisory mechanism or a central organization capable of promoting the program. Almost all tribes operated within the YMCA. This loose organization made it virtually impossible for them to compete effectively with the BSA. Another major problem was the lack of commitment to technological growth and progress. This was a key tenant of middle-class American culture. Boys might enjoy naturing outings, but few American boys wanted to make that their exclusive boyhood activities. Many were also fascinated by the many technical advances that were occurring and were interested in a program that could help them pursue some if the new technologies. The absence of a program moral indoctrination was also a weakness in the eyes of many adults. American Daniel Carter Beard founded the Sons of Daniel Boone in 1905. The Sons of Daniel Boone was in the 1900's, the largest boys organization in America. In many ways the movement was instep with the future Boy Scout movement. The Sons of Daniel Boone in particular preached patriotism, in sharp contrast with the other principal precursor group, Ernest Thompson Seaton's Woodcrafy Indians. Beard was a strong advocate of Scouting and joined his organization with the Boy Scouts of America. Where as Scouting in England was not very well organized, some Boys Brigade and Church Lads Brigades had Scout Patrols, which at one time was how BP seen Scouting. Not as a stand alone organization but a program working with in other Boy's youth groups. However when Scouting For Boy's and Aids to Scoutmastership hit the streets many Boys started forming their own Patrols and they recruited the adults. Baden Powell a national hero was a solider who had little or no real experiences running a youth organization. Add to this he didn't have very much money. Unlike William D. Boyce. Boyce Boyce was a 51 year-old newspaper and magazine publisher from Chicago, Illinois.newspaper and magazine publisher from Chicago, Illinois who after getting lost in a thick London fog in 1910 was escorted to his destination by the famed unknown Boy Scout. Boyce at the time had never even heard of Boy Scouting, but was so impressed that when he returned to America he helped found the Boys Scouts of America (BSA). He used his business skills to help create the most important youth organization in the United States. Boyce's generous financial contributions were critical at the early stages of the program. His donations came with only one condition, the BSA would include all boys, regardless of race or creed. As a result of clashes with BSA executive James West, he eventually withdrew from the BSA. Boyce was in the business of selling papers he saw the potential of using boys to sell his papers and he, more than many other publishers, made some effort to look after their welfare. He had 30,000 boy-agents helping to sell his weeklies. The boys played a major role in his business success. He also came to keenly appreciate their needs. Boyce, as soon as he returned home to Chicago, began working on an American Scouting organization. He discussed the idea with his friend, Colin H. Livingstone, of Washington, D.C., and with other people in Washington, DC. Together only four months after the foggy encounter with the unknown Scout in London, they established a new corporation--the Boy Scouts of America--the BSA. Boyce used much of the organization of Baden Powell's Boy Scouts, but added Indian lore to the program. He became the "Chief Totem" and launched the program. His first effort failed because of poor organization. He received valuable advise from YMCA executives Edgar Robinson, J.A. Van Dis, and Dr. L.L. Doggett, who were also interested in the Scout movement. Boyce was a businessman with an interest in youth work. His critical contribution to Scouting was to incorporate the BSA as a business. He incorporated the organization, choosing Washington, DC, rather than Chicago to emphasize its national character. It was in Washington that the BSA was incorporated on February 8, 1910. He provided essential funding for the fledgling organization. Boyce's generous financial contributions were critical at this stage. His donations came with only one condition, the BSA would include all boys, regardless of race or creed. Edgar Robinson was a YMCA youth worker. Some YMCA chapters were using Scouting materials and programs. He was concerned about their ability to continue doing so when he read that William Randolph Hearst and Boyce were incorporating Scout associations. He offered to manage the launch of the BSA for Boyce. In fact Boyce was unsure how to turn the BSA into a functioning youth operation. He decided to cooperate with Robinson and the YMCA. It was this group led by Robinson that was primarily responsible for creating an efficient national organization in there critical first year of Scouting.Then there of course was James E. West an attorney active with juvenile cases in Washington DC. He was recruited in 1911 as Executive Secretary, in part because Boyce wanted the BSA based in national capital to demonstrate the organization's national character. West changed his title to Chief Scout Executive. He more than any other person created a well-organized national structure that was a key to the BSA's growth and reputation. He intended to make Scouting only a temporary diversion from his legal career, but that changed with the tremendous growth of the movement. West remained Chief Scout Executive from 1911 until he retired in 1943. Scouting founder William D. Boyce did not get along with West. Boyce saw Scouting has his own organization. As a result of the quarrel and differences of opinion, West had Boyce's name virtually deleted from BSA records. West also had problems with Ernest Thompson Seaton another founder of the Scouting movement. Both Seaton and West were strong-willed individuals. They had conflicting ideas on how Scouting should develop. Seton was deeply committed to the ethos of Scouting saw West as a city lawyer and simple administrator/ He challenged West's authority to control the young program's development. West controlled the BSA organization and power base, and forced Seton out in 1916. Seaton's writing was removed from the Boy Scout Handbook. Despite Seaton's departure, like Boyce, these men left an indelible impression on American Scouting. West for many years resisted the creation of a Cubbing program for younger boys. West had a very hard childhood Both of James West's parents died before he was 7 years old, so he was sent to live in an orphanage in Washington, D.C. Soon after, tuberculosis germs attacked one of his hips and knees. He spent two years in the hospital and was left with a permanent limp. It was a hard life at the orphanage, but it made James West tough. At times he served as handyman, laundry operator, librarian, night watchman, and chicken raiser. He earned a law degree as a young man. In his spare time West took on volunteer jobs for kids. He helped to set up Washington's first juvenile court so that children would not have to be tried in adult courts. He had a big part in building the city's playgrounds. He helped form the Child Rescue League, which placed 2,000 children in foster homes. In 1910, when the leaders of the new BSA asked West to be their chief executive, he did not want to take the job. Finally he agreed to, serve for six months. The six months stretched into 32 years. West was a hard-driving executive and a demanding boss. One minute he would be chewing out an employee, the next, patting him on the back. From 1922 until his retirement in 1943, James West was editor of Boys' Life as well as Chief Scout Executive. James West's desire to run the BSA in a businesslike manner did not always sit well with Ernest Seton and Daniel Beard. After clashing with James West several times, Seton left the BSA in 1915. He blasted West as a "man of great executive ability, but without knowledge of the activities of boys; who has no point of contact with boys, and who, I might say, has never seen the blue sky in his life." It seems that West was not a very likable fellow. Baden Powell and West did not get on and did clash over religious issues. West of course won in the USA. The very close links with the YMCA along with the wording of the Scout Oath has meant that God has been in the BSA from the beginning. BP, and the British Scout movement did at one time allow an "Outlander Promise" which does not mention God or the King, to the best of my knowledge this has never been allowed in the BSA. Eamonn.

We have our Council Recognition Dinner tomorrow. The theme is based on the 75TH Cub Scouting Anniversary. We have five NE-IV-153 Participants receiving their Wood Badge regalia. The Dinner Chairperson has let it be known that "This Can't Take All Night!!" I of course knowing that a Scout is Brave said "Yes Dear!!" If you see me hiking home tomorrow night please stop and offer me a ride we can chat about how the ceremony took too long and how Her That Must Be Obeyed, got upset. Eamonn.

Way To Go Beav, Shame this isn't a little country across the pond, I would defiantly take you out for a pint. As it is we will break open a new pack of cookies at the Jambo - Just to show that we know how to do things in style!! I am really happy for you and the Lads that you serve. I feel sure that we will not have to wait very long to hear that a 3rd bead has been added. Of course now that the Training is out of the way you can move down here to Pennsylvania. I know just the right Council! Good Job and Well Done. Eamonn.

There are times when we all wish life was like a movie, sad to report it's not. Follow Me Boys,is very entertaining but has much to do with Scouts and Scouting as The Nutty Professor has. You say "I don't want to seem like I'm abandoning my post."What post would that be? Assistant to a Scoutmaster that doesn't turn up for meetings? As I see it you have 4 choices: 1/ Stay home watch your movie and complain when the meetings are not happening.The Troop is not going to last very long and your training will have been for nothing. 2/ Talk to the COR Troop Committee Chair. about removing the no-show SM. 3/ Change Troops. 4/ Talk to the DE or the District Membership Chair. about starting a real and new Boy Scout Troop in your area. You need to make the choice. Eamonn

I have to admit that I very surprised when you said this was part of a Wood Badge course!! It is a very long way from the syllabus. The pancakes should be fine as long as you cook them throughly to start with. The danger-zone is in the reheating they need to be brought up to a tempreture of above 165 degrees for about 3 minutes. You could also use pasteurized eggs when you make the pancakes. You might want to visit: http://www.aeb.org/safety/egg_handling_and_care_guide.html Eamonn.

How big the deal is depends on how big someone wants to make of it. Just thinking about some of the things that have come up here in the past few weeks. How many Troops in their big book of rules have a written policy that states that all medication must be handed over to the Adult Leader in charge? We know that this is not the BSA ruling and it seems in some states it might be illegal. The ear ring. We know that there is no BSA ruling on ear rings. The member of the Board was out of order asking for it to be removed. The Lad thought it was a big enough deal to quit Scouting. What action was taken against the adult. A letter of apology might have been a good idea? Confiscation of other peoples property seems to be no big deal if the property is a cell phone. What happens when a irate parent reports this as theft? Does it become a big deal then? Wood Badge Patrol badges allowed to remain on a uniform not a big deal until the troop would have had a perfect score when the UC did the uniform inspection but the beady eye seen the offending patch. 99.9% of parents are OK with the Elementary School chartering a Cub Scout Pack, some ACLU member six states away is not happy all of a sudden it becomes a big deal. I jump in my car to buy milk at the convenience store less than a two minute drive, not wearing a seat belt is no big deal until the drunk twit hits me. Many moons ago OJ landed himself in hot water at school. The elementary school principle phoned and asked if I would stop in. John is a super nice fellow an Eagle Scout and now is a member of the District Committee. At this time we didn't know each other very well in fact OJ had just transfered from a Catholic school. When I arrived he took me into his office and said "Do you know what Oliver said when I asked him what would your father say if he found out what you have done?" I said "I bet he said only the mugs get caught." John was shocked and wanted an explanation. I explained that I had been caught smoking by my House Master when I was at school. I really liked our House Master, he was from Wales and played on the Welsh International Rugby team. I played number eight on both the House and School Rugby team so he liked me as much as anyone from Wales can like anyone who isn't from Wales. He seemed to have something to say about everything. He is in the Rugby Book of Quotes saying: "I think you enjoy the game more if you don't know the rules. Anyway, you're on the same wavelength as the referees." - Jonathan Davies, A Question of Sport BBC TV Smoking in school was a big deal, in fact so big that getting caught was punishable by a caning from the Senior Master ( Yes there were different ranks of who would hit you depending on the crime!!) A caning from the Senior Master went on your report card. Jonathan had caught me smoking on my way home not on school property but still in school uniform. He took great pains to explain to me that only the mugs get caught and the best way not to get caught was not to do it and if you were stupid enough to do it be clever enough not to get caught. I thought that these were wise Welsh words and have carried them with me always. Being the nice chap that he was he agreed to do the caning so it wouldn't show up on my report card. Our Senior Master was a little man, I know that he wouldn't have hurt me near as much as Mr Davies did, he even added an extra whack because I wasn't wearing my school cap. I explained this to OJ's principle. He was in shock. When he first heard OJ say "Only the mugs get caught" He thought I was not a very good parent. When BP was asked about Be Prepared, prepared for what he answered any old thing!! How big a deal something is depends on so many different things, our values, our education, where and how we were brought up. I feel fairly safe within my values and have learned to live with the values that Her Who Must Be Obeyed has. Right now OJ is at the age where he is questioning everything and is rebelling but he will out grow that at the end of the day it's not a big deal. Eamonn.

Normally the Council Advancement Committee attends to these awards. Eamonn.

Welcome to the real world. Please know that the friends and family of your recently departed Scout Exec. are in my thoughts and prayers. Eamonn.

Judy I needed more people like you when I was the Council Training Chair. Many years ago when I became a Cubmaster the Den Leaders that I inherited were untrained and made it known that they were not going. I was the new guy and I needed them, so I didn't have a lot of choice. While each and everyone of them was a nice person for some unknown reason (Unknown to me anyway!!) They looked on what they were doing as a chore. They never did anything but the Den Meetings, Pack meetings and the Leader meeting. As time past and the pack grew the new people that came on board were a lot more enthusiastic, they bought into the idea that this was fun and that we were there to serve the little fellows in the pack. This new group were willing to attend training's and seen some of the adult events as an opportunity to let their hair down and have fun. Sad to say the people that were there never did get the bug. For my part I never made attending training a condition of leadership,I did promote training and did promote the fact that Scouting without having the Scouts around can be both informative and a lot of fun. For many years even after I was gone the pack took home the R/T attendance award. Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

One thing that I forgot to mention is that the Leader also has to be agreeable to accept the responsibility. If he or she is unwilling the parent must decide to allow the Lad to look after himself or attend the event. While I have never seen anything in black and white from National, I do try not to make a big deal about this so as not to draw attention to the Lad. While some Lads wear the fact that they are on medication like a badge of honor others don't want the other Lads to know. I had a Lad at the last Jambo who was growing like a bad weed he was 15 and already over six feet tall. It turned out he was growing faster than his bladder and he needed a med to prevent him from bed wetting. He was one of the Patrol Leaders and really didn't want that to get out. I also think it is important not to try and guess what the medication is for. If the family tell you that is fine and dandy but someone with a little medical knowledge (Her Who Must Be Obeyed works in the ER of our local hospital.) can jump to the wrong conclusions. I for example take a drug that is normally taken to prevent epileptic seizures. I am not epileptic, I have it to prevent my back spasms. One other thing that we have debated in the past is Dispensing Medications at Summer camp. Many Camps have a rule that all medications need to be under the watchful eye and supervision of the Camp medical staff. I think we do need to let the parents know this ahead of time. I am a little uncertain about what the law is in my state. I think that we might be on very thin ice depending on the qualifications of the person dispensing the drugs,but I'm not sure. We have a lot of well qualified attorneys in the Council and I would hope that they know more about the law than I do. Eamonn.

Yes to what he said. I think that you might find things are not as strict here as they are on the other site, which is a mighty fine site with some great people both posting and moderating - I work with some of them so I have to be nice - Not that I'm not nice all the time. Eamonn.

I have to admit that this thread took off in a different direction than I thought it would. Which is a good thing. I still get all the E-mails about Scouting events going on in the UK. I'm really impressed. First that I get as many as 2 or 3 of these a week. They really are using the communication tools that are available to keep everyone in the picture. I know more about what is happening in Scouting in England than I do about what is happening here in the USA. Other than paying the guy who writes the stuff, I think the cost of keeping everyone informed is minimal. I don't know why we are not doing something like this. The information is a very mixed bag it ranges from sales and promotions in the Scout Shops, availability of different grants, Training opportunities in different parts of the country, free tickets to see the latest Disney Movies and different activities that are going on. Even job openings at Gilwell Park. Some of the activities are pure marketing and are very clever. When the position of Chief Scout became available about two years ago they broke from tradition and managed to get a well known TV personality to fill the spot. Kids of Scout age knew him from the work he had done on Blue Peter a children's magazine show that airs twice a week. He had also done a prime time serious about traveling around the world. He has used his celebratory status and his connections to invite other well known people to do things for Scouts and Scouting, even a celebratory soccer match at Gilwell Park. Scout groups from all over the country came and camped so they could be there - They had received all the details via E-mail. The event made the news all over the country. Scouting is working really hard to be kid friendly and dare I say cool. Children both in Scouting and those who aren't know who the Chief Scout is. Very few people know or care who the top professional is. I wonder how many of us know who the National President is? While I have never met Roy L. Williams,and I'm sure that he is a very nice chap he doesn't come across as being warm and fuzzy in fact most kids have no idea who he is or what he does. I find it a little odd that his title has the word Chief in it and Roy S. Roberts the National President doesn't. In most other countries the volunteer guy gets the Chief in his title. Maybe we need to follow the lead of the NRA, they used Charlton Heston and no I am not suggesting that we recruit Mr. Heston, but I sure was cheering him when he said: The gay and lesbian movement is another good example. Many homosexuals are hugely talented artists and executives... also dear friends. I don't despise their lifestyle, though I don't share it. As long as gay and lesbian Americans are as productive, law-abiding and private as the rest of us, I think America owes them absolute tolerance. It's the right thing to do. But on the other hand, I find my blood pressure rising when Clinton's cultural shock troops participate in homosexual-rights fund-raisers but boycott gun-rights fund-raisers... and then claim it's time to place homosexual men in tents with Boy Scouts, and suggest that sperm donor babies born into lesbian relationships are somehow better served and more loved. (Dec 1997) Sure he took a lot of heat for that speech and parts of it were not nice. Still he said what he believed, he took a stand. I wish the people who are charged with leading our organization would stand up and give both a voice and a face to our timeless values. Sure there will be some heat, sure not everyone will be happy but a Scout is brave, we are being bashed now so what have we got to lose? Next time there is an opening for a National President maybe we won't look at a former vice president and group executive of vehicle sales, service and marketing for General Motors, but we will look for a General Colin L. Powell or a Neil Armstrong. Eamonn

I would say that you have joined a unit that isn't going to make it. A Scout Troop needs people who care. One person just can't do it. I don't see how you can assist the Scoutmaster, when he doesn't even tell you what is going on. If I were the parent of one of the little fellows crossing over I sure as heck would talk my kid out of joining this outfit!! It sounds like you are flogging a dead horse. Get out now. Eamonn.

I have heard this from two different people who don't know each other and I believe it to be true. A local Scout Executive, from a nearby Council was asked at the last minute to fill in a spot on the local radio. It seems the radio station had been let down by someone. He was interviewed and talked about how good Scouting is and all that sort of stuff. Near the end of the interview he gave a list of things that the Council needed. He said how a cabin on the Council Camp site needed repair. The next day he received a call from a Lady who said that she had heard the interview and would like to help. He was busy so he sent a DE and the Field Director. The house they went to was a large house but looked a little shabby. In fact they joked that this was a waste of time and the Lady probably needed a hand with her cats. The Lady said that she was interested in helping with the cabin and requested that they come back with the plans that they had. They came back at a later date with the plans for the repairs. She wasn't happy!! She asked them to come back with plans for a new Cabin. They returned twice more with plans each plan bigger than the last. By now the Lady was becoming a little frustrated, she told them that she would have her Architect draw up the plans. In the end she wrote a check to cover the cost for a building that was anything but a cabin and since then she has paid for a new Nature Center and gives the Council about $250,000 a year. Needless to say the SE no longer allows the DE and the Field Director to look after her. He did ask her what had made her choose the Council as her charity of choice? She said that she heard him talking about leave no trace and thought it was such a wonderful idea. The Lord moves in mysterious ways. Eamonn.

The reasons for taking training are many. I'm guessing that many who post here have attended or presented their fair share. Each of us who have taken training has our own reason or reasons for doing so. One thing I have found out is that most people have to be asked to do something or better still invited. Expecting people to step up doesn't work very well. Not asking is one sure way of not getting. A lot of people are very scared that once we get them on board, we are never going to let go. To some extent they are right.I am fairly well known for not accepting no for an answer and if I only get someone to do a one time only event, I more than lightly will be back with something else. I try really hard to pick the best time and place when I'm doing the ask. I am totally honest and don't dress things up. While we have all come across the Leader who is only in this game for his own Lad, I like to think that over time Scouting gnaws away at him or her and over time he or she starts to get it. I have never ever in all the time that I have been around Scouts and Scouting had anyone refuse to do something because: Because if they don't know, then they didn't break any rules. In fact this is the first time I ever heard that. I do know that we very often get what we deserve, if we ask expecting a "No" then we ought not be surprised when we get one. Eamonn.

Chive Talking Eagles?? I thought that was the Bee Gees. Or is that a soar point? Eamonn.