eaglescout1996

I actually attended NLS this weekend, which I first have to say was a great course! All though I think it covered alot of things I have learned in the past, it was great going with the youth of the order and seeing what they think "leadership" is and how they react to the syllabus, I think it will help me relate better to the youth as an advisor. The staff did a wonderful job, very well prepared. We had about 80 participants, 90% youth, 10% adults....originally there were more adults, but there were youth on the waiting list and some were moved to NLATS. The Game of Life/Win All You Can was on the syllabus, and the staff pulled all the WB21C attendees off to the side and asked us not to participate. There were about 10 total, both "youth" and adult. During the game, a few of us in the back were discussing how the NLS version was so much better than what we experienced in WB. In between rounds the staff would yell "WIN ALL YOU CAN", and then the "host" broke the teams in to four groups, "WIN", "ALL", "YOU", and "CAN". He ran around the room pointing, and in about the sixth round or so he changed the order so it was "CAN YOU ALL WIN"...and then eventually "YOU ALL CAN WIN". It was great to observe the participants, many 16 or 17 with a couple adults thrown in, start to get it! I have to agree with EMB, that the NLS course's version is so much better than WB. Yes, some emotions ran high, but in the end, there weren't any hard feelings and the team that was trying to win all they could, actually felt bad and spoke out about it. I also have to give a shout out to the "youth" staff of NLS, participating were the National Chief, the Southern Regional Chief, and I believe 8 of the Southern Sectional Chiefs, and many others. They are a bunch of well prepared, dedicated, and just all around good group of men. It was great seeing them work with some of the youngest OA members, and help cultivate these young men in to future leaders.

I would personally contact your volunteers and explain the situation.....give them the option to come or not. If I was driving 3 hours to come give a class, I'd be very disapointed if only 1 person showed up....they are volunteers and their time is valuble as well.

Eamonn, I just saw your question. The reason we handed them out at round table, is that it is easier. All the UC contacted their CC, and a majority of them did show up to last months RT. The reason being, we had a seperate training that day for the CC on using the online rechartering system. Over the last couple of years there has been a gradual trasfer for us, and since everything has to be online now, we thought it convenient to have the CC come to the RT, get some training, and pick up their packets. I'd say we had about a 60% turnout for the CCs last month, and the UCs and our two DEs took the remaining packets and have been delivering them.

We're in the middle of recharter right now, we gave out packets last month, next week's round table we're hoping to have a few packets back, and we set the date of December round table to have everything done. Our District Commissioner has been on us (UC's) to go out and provide all the help we can with our units, and we're hoping this works out pretty well. Previously, some units didn't have recharter packets back until Feb/Mar/Apr, even though our charter dates run 1/1-12/31.

Going around doing my unit visits as a UC, in the last month I've noticed an increase in the wearing of a "full" uniform (shirt and pants). I reallly think it has to do with the blowout sales that Supply has been having on the old uniform parts. Most of the boys I've been seeing are wearing the old switchbacks, and although folks have complained about the flaws, parents have been buying them for their scouts at $10. I myself picked up a couple pair, and never having owned a pair before, think that they're ok (except for the belt). One of the packs I serve, like Eagle92 mentioned, are chartered by a private school. At the last pack meeting, the CM gave a quick "talk" about proper uniforming, and mentioned that he knew the pants were expensive, but a good substitution were the navy school pants. He also went over the proper wearing of the neckerchief, to include the under collar and tuck under and wear over style. Although they don't have a set way the pack wears them, they want everyone to participate. As for the new uniform, the only people I've seen wear them besides boys brand new to scouting, are the district and council type volunteers. The professional staff in our council doesn't even wear them, and that's including the folks who work at the Scout Shops.

I know I'm getting a little of topic, but it could work. Our lodge actually has an OA Scoutreach mentoring weekend, were members of the lodge work with Scoutreach scouts at camp on basic out door skills like, knot tying, cooking, ect. This last camporee was the first time a couple of units had actually camped in almost 2 years.

No problem Shortridge... Many of these "Troops" are 2, 3, or 4 Scouts or so. They aren't that large, so at a district event, the "Troops" of each Paraprofessional are brought together to form a Troop of their own. It was a little confusing when running my event and I would ask for the Patrol name and Troop number. I would get, "Troop 2600" and someone would say, "but I'm in Troop 456"....so I just had them pick a patrol name (something cool) and told them to identify themselves as the "bleeding bobcat patrol" for the rest of the day, even if they were from more than one troop. These Scoutreach Troops are opperating like Lone Scouts, except theres a couple of boys together. Hope it explains it a little better. I agree that it's not ideal, but better than nothing.

I've finally had the opportunity to read the thread from front to back, and I'll through in my $.02. I have a father who was off and on, being my SM growing up. He earned his Eagle in about '66. His attitude was that WB was for adult leaders who weren't Scouts as boys, as WB teaches outdoor skills. I earned Eagle in '96 and attended Golden Falcon, which was Transatlantic Councils version of Brownsea or JLT. A week long experience, with a full troop of eight patrols with eight boys each. It was full of leadership lessons and outdoor scoutcraft skills....and probably one of the best times I had as a scout. Fast forward ten years, and I'm serving on the District Commissioner staff. I'm being bombarded with the "Wood badge Talk", how I should sign up for the next course because it's the pinnacle of Scouting. I decided that I would cave in to the pressure and attend WB...not sure what I was getting into, or what I would get out of my $210. You know what, I had a good time. I didn't particularly learn anything new, but I did leave filled with excitement of what Scouting had to offer me and my community. The sad thing was, I didn't bond very well with my patrol mates. Of the seven of us, five were LDS and had all known each other for a while, one was a female DL, and there was me. I didn't think we had a high concentration of LDS units, but the Course Director, SPL, and about half the staff were, along with about 75% of the participants. I just remember thinking, "Theyre telling me that there are all these benefits in Diversity, but yet, this isn't a very diverse group of people." It did give me an opportunity to sit and talk to some Scouters about LDS, and we both sort of asked questions of each other. One of the Scouters biggest questions were why other units treated them or look at them differently. My response was, as a boy, the only time we would see the LDS units was at Camporee, and that was Friday night and Saturday....and that by Sunday morning, magically they disappeared and we didn't see them again until the next Camporee. What I did take away from working my ticket was realizing my own faults of constant procrastination. I've always known it existed, but WB make me confront it and actually work on it. It's still there, but I've learned to manage it a bit. I wear my beads, but I don't have critter stuff all over the place or wear a WB belt or buckle (I prefer my almost 20 year old OA "Indian Chief" one). If someone asks me my critter, I'll tell them, and it's a joy to find another antelope, as it always seems they're hard to come by. My wife, who has only been in scouting about two months as a District Committee member, is already getting assaulted about attending WB. If she decides to attend next year, I'm going to try and keep most of the curriculum away from her, as she's pretty well versed in the Covey stuff and I would want her to experience it herself. As for my 60 year old father, after discussing what 21CWB is about (and what it's not), he's actually really considering trying to go next year. After almost 30 years in the military and a management job with NASA, most of it will be just rehashing, but I'm sure it will give him a new sense of vigor and excitement about being a Scouter again.

It's usually a combination of everything Mike said. I'll give you an example of my latest experience with our Fall Camporee.... I just moved to a new Council/District, and I jumped right in and volunteered to be on staff for the camporee which was coming up three weeks after I turned in my adult application. I was running a "knot relay" and I purchased the rope and decided on the eight knots to have each patrol go through (it was a timed course). I was told by the camping chair that competitions would be in the afternoon and that "refresher" courses would be in the morning. So I went out and purchased small cord and cut it into 2ft pieces for the refresher. In each 45 minute block, I had about 4 patrols I was trying to go over 8 simple knots...I was able to get through 4 (overhand, square, bowline, and timber hitch), because of the lack of basic scout skills many of the boys had. Our camporee was aparently the best attended in about 5 years with 147 boys total participating. The problem is, that there are a lot of Scoutreach units, in which one Paraprofessional is the only leader for 3 or 4 units. Hardly any of the boys (except from 2 units) had ever tied any of those knots before. The sad thing is that you have a large group of boys, who don't have proper leadership (the Council is doing the best they can with the Paraprofessionals), come from single parent households, and whose parents probably weren't exposed to the skills that Scouts teach. Throw them in to competitions with a few patrols from very well organized Troops, who have great programs, and the self esteem of the boys plummet, since all the competitions are being won by the patrols from the same two Troops. No wonder they haven't been coming to District events, they don't want to show their lack of knowledge with basic Scout skills. Boys don't like to fail...and when they get exposed out in the open that they don't know what other boys their age do, they feel really bad. I was "giving hints" to some of the boys who were struggling with some of the knots durring the competition, I allowed them to tell their buddies how to do it, but not acutally tie the knots for them. During the competitions, they were having a great time and it was wonderful seeing their eyes light up when you gave them praise for a job well done (I had to constantly tell the boys to cheer on their buddies), but at the campfire, you could see the dejection on their faces after those two other Troops basically walked away with everything. I really felt bad for most of the boys in Scoutreach units, I want all boys to have the same wonderful experience in Scouts that I did. Although many might not advance very far, they all have some great Paraprofessionals leading them, and their getting great mentorship from them. I really think the fear of failure infront of your peers is the biggest motivator from not going to Camporee, and that maybe what happened in your case. (sorry for the long post!)

Wow John! I only wish our RTs were that together. For us, I think it's sort of a staff thing. Many of the RT "Commissioners" are UC and have to do double duty. My wife, who is only two months into Scouting and serves on the district committee doing PR work, was wrangled into working as a CS RT staff member. We cover about 75% of what you do, along with having the Chapter meeting at the same time/place...and only have about 1/5 of the turnout. I was visiting a Pack meeting last night and trying to convince the new CM and some DLs to come to RT...it being only two blocks away from the Church/School that they meet. Only problem, all the adult leaders are members of the K of C Council that meets at that church, and it's the same day and time as RT...which the reason I don't go to my K of C meetings.

I was at our Council Commissioners Conference this weekend, and saw one of the professional staff members wearing a pair of the wool slacks. I also own a pair of the wool blend shorts (which I purchased during the 70% off sale), and have to say that the slacks and shorts are a much lighter shade of "green", almost greyish in color. I also have a couple pairs of the 100% cotton slacks, that I've worn with my cotton shirt, and for whatever reason, they're a much darker shad of "green" than the blend pants with the "cargo" pockets.

It was nice reading the replies and seeing that some folks had attended the same camps as I did growing up. Mine included the following.... 1989: Camp Baden-Powell, England (Transatlantic Council) 1990: Camp Freedom, Germany (Transatlantic Council) 1991: Camp Bayern, Germany (Transatlantic Counicl) 1992: Camp Freedom, Germany (Transatlantic Council) 1994: Camp La-no-che, Florida (Central Florida Counicl) We were supposed to go to Camp Tuscany in Italy in 1992, but we found out about a week before we were to leave, France wouldn't give us permission for our Troop to use an Army bus to transport us down to Italy for the week, luckily, we were able to transfer over to Freedom for summer camp. Alot of us were really bummed, because we always heard rumors from other Troops that there was a nude beach just a mile or so away from camp.

MrsG, I wouldn't worry about it. I was in the same boat quite a few years ago. I spent the summer at Fort Knox, I then was off to college as an Army ROTC Cadet and didn't have my ECOH until I was home for Thanksgiving. I actually still had my Life rank badge on since I hadn't worn it for six months. Hope your son is having fun, ROTC can be a bit demanding, especially with a large class load.

I was almost in the same situation as Eagle92's friend. My Scoutmaster refused to sign my completed workbook because she said I didn't show enough leadership and did too much of the manual labor myself. I planned, fundraised, and obtained the materials I needed. I enlisted help from family/friends, and being the President of the Key Club, I was able to get some of my club members to help out....guess who didn't come out until five hours into the second day of work? My Scoutmaster and a few boys from my Troop...and after I directed the boys (they were all 11-13), she went behind me and told them to stop what they were doing or told them to do something else. Unfortuntely, for five years all I really had to do was my project, and after moving from Europe and getting my licence, although I was still involved in Scouting, I was totaly distracted. Since I was running into my 18th birthday, she thought she could put up a pretty tough roadblock and I wouldn't fight it. At the hearing with the Council Advancement Committee, when asked about not showing enough leadership and doing "too much" of the labor myself, I just said that there were different types of leadership. How could I expect the people follwoing me to do the work if I wasn't doing it myself. A EBOR was scheduled for the time between I was home from basic training and then reporting to my first week of college, and everything turned our alright. She saw it as an exercise in "management" and I saw the project as one in "leadership."

I became a scout during the transition (1989), including skill awards, I believe the time requirements were 2 months for tenderfoot, 3 months 2nd class, and 4 months for 1st class. If I remember correctly, I did tenderfoot and 2nd class under the old requirements and 1st class with the new ones...and even with the confussion with the change (we had the old books and "temporary" pamphlets with the requirements in them), I completed 1st class in 12 months. Granted, back then I was living on a miltary base overseas and didn't have the distractions kids have now of days...but looking at the current requirements, I don't see why it can't be accomplished.

There is no reason why BSA can't make clothes, for a reasonable price, here in the United States. Brooks Brothers still makes their Oxford Cloth Button Down shirts in North Carolina, like they have for years, and during Brooks annual sales, you can get them for $46 a piece....and I'm sure their profit margin is a lot larger than BSA's. I have a few BB shirts, that have lasted more than 15 years, and still hold up well....so it's totally feasible.

One which I wear, and two which I don't. 1. Eagle Knot 2. Service flap from my origional Lodge (F5), Black Eagle #482, you couldn't purchase them, they were given to you after you served as an Elangomat, I had three, but I think I lost one... 3. 1992 Intercamp 25th Anniversary Participant's Patch, although I don't wear it anymore, I had a great time at Intercamp, and since your unit had to be invited in order to attend, it was a great honor to be there. For anyone who doesn't know, Intercamp is sort of like a mini-Jambo for Scouting units in Europe held every year, but sponsored by a differnet Scouting Association year to year. It was lots of fun!

I could see that, a young man with uniform worn from years of use...but whatever happened to the appropriateness of the situation? I'm not saying that the young man needs to be spit and polished when he stands in front of the man, but shouldn't we be preparing these young men with life skills? The EBOR is probably the biggest "interview" any of those young men will have faced to that point. If they don't have a reasonable expectation on what is appropriate, what happens when they have a college interview, one with a Senator's staff for that nomination to West Point, or their first job.

There was at least twice I can remember, that my family let another scout borrow a pair of pants for his EBOR. For some, the pants might be an expense a family can't justify and they haven't been able to find some second hand, but it was always important to be fully uniformed for your EBOR. If the EBORs are just going over the application, why have them in the first place? Shouldn't the entire Scout and his experience be under review, it is a "Board of Review" after all? I'm not saying ask the young man to demonstrate tying a bowline on a bight behind his back, blind-folded, in the dark, and in 3.1 seconds, but has he lived by the Scout Oath and Law, demonstrated leadership (not just completed a service project), what has he recieved from Scouting in return, ect. If a potential Eagle Scout doesn't have enough respect for himself or the BOR to not only show up in a complete uniform (shirt, pants, belt, and hopefully necker) that is IRONED, do we really think the highest Scout achievement should be bestowed upon them? Yes, I'm an Eagle Scout, and I recieved it by the skin of my teeth (4 months after my 18th brithday...long story!), and was one of those guys who was a life scout for over 5 years. I'm not trying to be "protective" of the Eagle Scout Award, but has that Scout demonstrated that he has not only given back to the community, but received something as well. I don't remember much from my EBOR, probably since I had to appeal to the Council Advancement Committee because my Scoutmaster refused to sign my Project Packet and give me a SMC....and she fought with tooth and nails trying to bar me from attending an EBOR. But what I do remember was a specific question on leadership....not my Eagle Project, but other projects I lead in and out of Scouting. After talking about being a three sport athlete, president of the Key Club, and attending Boy State, I spoke about a clothing drive I organized for avalanche victims in Turkey in '92 (attached to my packet were various documents, one being the letter from the Council Field Director praising me for the project). How I got word out what we were doing, had Scouts in my Troop go door to door to collect items, went around collecting boxes, which we then pack up the clothes in, and then arranged with my Father's commander to have them flown to Turkey where he was doing humanitarian relief work with the Army. The Board asked me how come I didn't write that up and use that as my Eagle Project...my only response was, "I don't know, on one of the phone calls I received from my dad, he mentioned what had happened, and I just decided to do it." Afterward, when they brought be back in to let me know I "passed" the BOR, they specifically mentioned the clothing drive, and that apparently for me, it really wasn't about advancing, but about growing as a young man. I'm not saying every young man is going to have a story like that...but I believe being an Eagle Scout is more than just checking the boxes, and showing up in a complete uniform is part of that process.

Thanks Eagle, I'll take a look at the older posts and take a read. One thing the CA mentioned to me was that about 1/3 to 1/2 the Troops in our District don't camp enough for Scouts to qualify for the OA. Our district is very diverse and Troops are spread between urban, suburban, and rural....and I'm hoping if we get some good Arrowmen involved, they can really start to promote a camping program in those units who really don't due it. I was away from Scouting for quite a few years after a turned 18 (college, military, work) and I came back as a UC...my involvement in the OA for the last few years was mainly Lodge and Chapter events. I wasn't too involved in the operations or adviser portions too much, so I have been really surprised at the all the changes that have taken place since I left. I've just kept wondering if the changes and the lax election rules have changed Scouts outlook on the Order.

Unfortunately, for the short term, I believe I'll end up being a "vocal" adviser. I recently moved to a different Council/Lodge, and along with my duties as a UC, I've been asked to be an Associate Chapter Adviser. Last week I went to my first Chapter meeting....it was me and the Chapter Adviser. He even holds it a the same time and place as the roundtable meeting, so that SM's can bring younger Arrowmen. So I took it upon myself to write up an agenda for an ad hoc Chapter meeting at next weekend's District Camporee. The CA is very appreciative that I've taken the reigns, but I'm a little puzzled at the lack of interest from the younger Arrowmen. Lodge Elections were last week at the Fall Fellowship and apparently Chapter Elections are usually next month, so maybe we'll get some enthusiastic young men in positions. The sad thing is that the CA told me that at our ad hoc cracker barrel Saturday night, we might get 3-4 Arrowmen to come. I've never experienced this before, but I see it as an opportunity to get some young men involved and rebuild the Chapter. What really got me...there was another younger UC at the roundtable last week (eagle scout, about 21 years old), I started up a conversation to introduce myself as there are only about 5 UC in the District. I mentioned the OA and becoming involved in my new Chapter, and he said that it was a waste of time. OA doesn't do anything worthwhile, it's a waste of time, and besides, he gets to wear the flap and sash without participating. I was dumbfounded, to say the least.

I have to agree with John...at 18 I thought I knew everything and when I went to Basic, I couldn't wrap my head around "mass punishment" from the Drills. Like he said, one guy screws up and EVERYONE's stuff gets dumped in a pile. The ultimate exercise in team work, looking out for each other and making sure everything is squared away. My point was from my personal experience was that, if I had turned 18, magically become an ASM and taken WB, without that outside experience, it would have been just about getting the beads, nothing would have sunk in.

I was a (sort of) youngster when I went through WB, being 27 when I went, I was about the youngest there. There were around 4-5 of us who were about 25-30. If I had gone through 7 or 8 years earlier, in my case, it probably would have been more of check the box and get the beads type of thing. But with college, grad school, and significant work experience, I got a lot more out of WB than I thought. When I went, I had just come back to scouting after about a 9 year absence (concentrating on the fore mentioned things), and I was recruited by the course director, who was our District Chairman and a previous ASM when I was a youth. I was hesitant to go, especially since I hadn't been involved in a while, thinking I didn't have the experience to go....I did, although it wasn't Scouting experience. That's the key, experience, and I think an 18 year old ASM, most likely has neither the Scouting or life experience to make WB a worthwhile course. I originally thought I didn't need to attend WB because I was an Eagle, and that's an attitude I received from my father. He became an Eagle in the early 60's and when he originally became an ASM, he was told that the "outdoor skills" from WB weren't necessary. I guess that might have been the case 50 years ago, but now, I think WB is useful for all who have enough experience to "get it." Anybody who has been through WB could easily see how a youngster could just "check the box" in order to get the beads and get absolutely nothing out of it. I sort of see how WB is kind of like B-school or other graduate programs in which work a lot better when the students have a decent amount of knowledge and experience to make it work.

Every Lodge event I've ever been to, everyone camped as a Chapter, never by individual units. I'm now on my third, and they've all been done this way (Black Eagle, Tipisa, and now Egwa Tawa Dee). Plus, I've never been to any Lodge or Chapter event that didn't have more than enough supervision, niether Advisors or Adult OA members. For instance, I attended my previous Lodge's work day last year, right before I moved. Our Chapter had 8 scouts and 12 scouters...and we have a lot of the 16+ scouts drive themselves, just like I did 15 years ago.

My parents were MBC for me, out of the 44 I earned, I couldn't tell you how many (maybe 12?). From the time I was a Scout through finishing all my Eagle requirements except my project, we were living on an Army post in Germany. Many of my required badges were earned at summer camp (camping, swimming, lifesaving, environmental science), but things like the citizenship's were done with at least two scouts by my father. To be honest, I always felt a little guilty when one of my parents were a MBC for me, I always thought that somebody would say something! Actually I believe my mother was only a MBC for one badge, Family Life, before it was required. I think that badges I took with other MBC that my father could have done, I got a little more out of. Not because of a lack of knowledge on my father's part, but being in contact with other adults. For instance my father used to be a LEO before the Army and served as an Army Aviator while in. But my MBC for fingerprinting was a CID agent and my weather study MBC was the Air Force meteorologist attached to my father's Battalion. He could have done them, but they were more "fun" with the other gentlemen. Maybe I just wanted to hang out and learn something from someone other than my father for once! My personal observation as an Eagle who has now spent more time as a Scouter than a Scout is....that Scouts who's "end game" is to be an "Eagle" get MBC who are convenient to obtain, and those who want to get the most out of scouting reach out and expand their horizons. Just my $.02.