Eagledad

Hi LA

Looking at this, and it's a bit confusing, I think the issue is you and your CM stepped on the toes of the CC and UC. Ignoring all the other facts you threw in, the real problem is the Tiger in the Bear den. Since you had no authority to allow the decision, this is really a CM situation. Now, your CC wants to take this to Council, I would let her. I would also encourage the CM to insist that the COH, District Commissioner, and District Chairman attend. The CC will present the facts and CM needs to defend the decision. No worrys there because the reason is families don't trust these adults. And now is the time to make sure this fact comes out. Once that is done, then it's time to ask the COH, District Chairman and Distrit Commish what else could they have done?

The CC has solved your problem provided you make sure she does call the meeting. If done properly, everything will come out in this meeting and District will have to suggest changes. You just have to make sure the meeting with the Council (DE?) is set up.

It sounds like what you have are a couple of busy bodies with no life except scouting. Good intentions, but can lead to to much selfserving desire to be important. You knock their crown around a little and they are lashing out. If this is the case, you need to look at them with compassion, not anger. They have set thenselves up for a big fall, and they will hurt.

How can a program with intentions that are so good and simple get so complicated and painful?

Good Luck

Barry

Hi Bob

Who needs correcting? These are the numbers the Last Frontier Council has been handing out since January. No one is perfect, but it's hard to imagine a Council being that careless. When does National put out their Eagle numbers?

Barry

My older son waited eight months before he found time. I just went to an ECOH that was done at the Scout's house with only close family friends. There were only two scouters from his troop invited, the present SM, and the previous SM, me. It was a very relaxed and enjoyable time with a barbecue lunch. What I found most interesting was the guests felt very honored to be invited. It was a warm and personal ceremony.

Barry

Hi LA

Without really seeing the other side, its hard to give one solution. Here are a few things that need understanding. Its very easy to be popular at the district level when you volunteer and work hard on district projects and not be seen as a terrible leader at the unit level. We have purposely pushed adults to be more active at the District level just to get them out of our hair.

Second, you have a responsibility to help your Cubs grow the best they can under the guidelines and training given to you. There is little the committee can change unless you are just out-right hurting the boys. But you should be willing to except guidence. Given that, you have to have fun and feel rewarded in your efforts. Other than the SM position, Den Leading was the hardest job I did in scouting. If you are to get your scouts through cubs, you need to pace yourself so that you dont loose enthusiasm before your second year of Webelos. There will always have to be some give in take in this program because adults are basically self-serving and usually the strongest adult wins. But too many times, the boys loose. Giving in sometimes makes you the big winner.

But, before you make those bitter choices, call the District Commissioner as suggested earlier, and I would call the District Chairman as well. Dont call them emotionally in anger or frustration, but more on a fact-finding mission. Ask questions that lead them to answers, but also to asking you questions. Dont appear biased against any adult, but ask your questions and find out the facts, and their suggested solution. You will learn a lot about these adults, and they may learn a lot from you as well. But, you should not come off as trying to make changes, let change come from another source. However, this is a volunteer organization, and you never can predict how adults will act, or react.

And like I said, maybe you will have to be the one to change. I was taught by a very wise woman my first year of scouting to start all my actions and thoughts with this phrase, THE BEST THING FOR THESE BOYS IS? Then proceed in that direction. Every time an adult says me, I or you. Restart the conversation with that phrase. I have changed the direction of many committee discussions with that phrase.

Good luck, and press on. Your boys need you.

Barry

Call Philmont. Don't know the number off hand, but a lot of Councils use to do them there. If you don't mind travel, the Last Frontier Council in Oklahoma has a one week course in July. Nothing like Oklahoma in July. I am sure Texas has one somewhere as well. Just start working your way east. As for differences in week ends or one week courses. It's a matter of taste and schedual. If you're looking to just get trained, I don't think you will find it matters too much.

Barry

Hi All

One suggestion I give to leaders of new troops is; if the adults expect the scouts to grow in their program, then the adults must grow even more so they don't limit the scouts opportunities. I have found that to be the major cause of weak older scout programs.

I have had JASMs that were better leaders then some of the adults. When it comes to running a boy run troop, the only factor that gives the 55 year old the right to be the scoutmaster of the 17 year old scout is wisdom carved out by the hard experiences of life. Other than that, the 17 year old could be a scoutmaster.

To the day we die, we require responsibilities that challenge our maturity and experiences for continued growth. The 18 year old leader deserves those same expectations, no less, no more. Troops with successful older scout programs usually treat those scouts as adults. A troop should feel honored to have an 18 year old man apply for an adult position.

Barry

Hi Glenn

I admire you troop working to improve the program with good adults.

Could you give us your list of positives and negitives in this situation?

First list advantages of getting this adult, then another list of without the him. Maybe the list will shine a different light on the needs of your program.

Good luck. I siad it yesterday in a different thread, scouting is great until the adults get involved.

Barry

Hi Glenn

Seems like something is missing. I think the right action is obvious. One adult is forcing all the others to hesitate doing the right action. What is this power he holds over the committee? Do you need the Webelos or you don't get any new scouts? Were they already committed? Are you the only troop in town or are there others? It appears your committee knows what to do, why are they hesitating?

Barry

Hmmm, this reminds me of the Wood Badge Patrol Leader who looked up Fox on the internet to get some ideas for her patrol. She was a little surprised by what popped up and said she couldn't use them in public. So I decided to look up Bob White and saw what I expected; Einstine, Beethoven, Benjamin Franklin, and Badon Powell. Not sure what the Fox problem was. Maybe they need more vegetables in their diet.

Barry

Bombing Bob White

Thank you for the kind words. I think this forum is a balance of ideas.

The reason I suggested the CC in this case is because 123 already talked to the SM and didn't get an acceptible answer. The committee's view will likely give 123 a better understanding of the program, either by "we support the SM fully" or "maybe he didn't understand your question, let me ask him". It could even be, "you're not the first to appraoch us with this situation".

The committee is suppose to let the SM run his program within the limits and guidelines issued by the BSA. They are also suppose to be seperated from the SM and his ASMs so that they have an objective opinion in situations like this one. Sometimes the SM is wrong and the committee should be the balance. But as we all know, it really depends on training and/or the desires of the adults. I have a saying, (Scouting is great until the adults get involved).

If nothing else, the answer from the CC will help 123 determine his next move. Sounds like you have a great young man there 123.

Have a good day.

Barry

That's the same good advice I might give at first Mark, but if the family eventually views the adult as a frustrating wall for continuing scouting, then I would start by calling the committee chair. But one thing I've learned about program problems, volunteers are more willing to listen when you asks questions.

"There is an appearance that my son isn't allowed to advance, can you help me understand how the program works?".

"I've talked to the SM, but I don't understand his approach for my son. Can you explain it differently so I can understand better?"

"My son is frustrated, his handbook says advance, yet he is asked to slow down, I'm not sure I understand. Can you help me so I can explain it to my son?"

There are two sides to every story and approaching the situation from a curiosity point of view may enlighten a lot of people and lead to a calm solution, or understanding.

Another troop might be the solution. I hope not.

Good luck.

Barry

Look for a western hat shop or a professional hat shop in your area and they can steam them to be more comfortable.

Barry

All right, Mores scouts, JLT and a Fun program. Great goals and great vision. Does you SM know all this? Lets take one thing at a time. To get more scouts, you have to have a program that boys would like to join. If there is one word that boys want all the time, what is that word? That word is where you want your program to go. Do white water rafting, backpacking and a goof off campout get you that part of your program? Hmm. Next, you have to get boys to visit your Troop. How? Give these guys something they want. Webelos want activity badges, lots of them. If your troop spent two meetings in the fall teaching some activity badge for all the Webelos in your area, would they come? Will they like what the see? What makes your troop the one they want?

Next JLT. There is a lot of ways to do this, find out what your District and Council offer. Put those on your calendar and get the committee and SM to approve and go go go. Now what else? Teach it yourself. Get with the Scoutmaster and look over the New Patrol Leaders Handbook and see how you guys can teach the basics of that book in one day. OK now here is the secret. Again what is it that every boy wants all the time? All your activities have to be that way. We had a saying in our Troop, if its not fun, loose it or change it. Make the Troop JLT something cool. Yes, they will have to learn how to run PLC and Patrol Corners. They need to learn how to use and agenda, roster and menus. But that can all be fun. Example is an all night movie night, or lock in at the YMCA. What ever, its got to be something fun. Dont loose sight of the goal of teaching junior leadership skills, but dont make it something you dread going too either. Scouting is a game with purpose. A game is fun, the purpose happens because they came. I love this Scouting stuff.

Now for campouts, your troop is new. Start off with simple goals and a simple program, and then work toward the more challenging program. Example, plan the next campout at a local area doing something easy like knots and a five-mile hike. You and your SM need to focus on the scouts getting to the camp on time and together. You need to make sure there is an agenda and that you guys are following it. What about menus and food, cooking equipment? Is your Quartermaster in charge of loading the trailer? These are all simple task for an experienced troop, but yours is new and they need to learn. Teach them, build habits and traditions. Have PLC meetings and evaluate what youve done. Youre your PLC How did it go? Was it fun? Was everyone involved? WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE IT BETTER AND MORE FUN?

Pick your easiest campouts and build up over the year. Set goals so you know if youre going the right direction.

There are a thousand ways and ideas, I didnt even scratch the surface, but hopefully these suggestions get you started thinking in your direction. Im concerned that committee asking for so much so fast. How can you plan your next meeting, you next campout and the whole year all at once? Divide your task in smaller bites. Set meetings for certain task. One meeting for the Troop Meeting and campout, another for the annual planning.

There was an idea of how to do your annual planning sent here a couple days ago under PLC Chat?. See if that model helps you.

Now you need to understand that the BSA has set certain goals and guidelines for troops. You have to work toward their goals using their guidelines. lets understand your goals and the SM goals. If you dont have the SPL handbook, get it. For right now, look up Aims and Methods on the Internet. You will find the Three Aims of Scouting. Character, Citizenship and Fitness. Those are the SM goals for every scout. Not a big deal for you expect everything you do needs to have an outcome to one or more of those goals. The guidelines are basically your goals. They are the Eight Methods you should have seen when you looked of the Aims and Methods. Look closely, have you seen them before? Leadership, advancement, outdoors and uniform and so on. See the BSA doesnt just say youre and Troop, now go. They tell you to build your program using all the methods or tools. Each scout uses theses methods, there is no choice. What you do have a choice on is how and when to use those methods. So, I am suggesting that as long as you are working toward the Scoutmaster goals of character, citizenship and fitness in your meetings and campouts, he is a happy camper and will basically give you free reins.

Yes, there are some limits to your activities. You have to do EVERYTHING within the Scout Law and Oath. That is the IDEALS method. So, let say you want to do a hiking campout, how can you achieve the Scoutmasters goals? Well the fitness part is already taken care of. What about citizenship? Hmmm, is there the possibility of a service project? Maybe you will pick up trash along side the road. Maybe you can clean up a local campsite. You could suggest doing a flag ceremony for the camp if they have one. I guess the word is serve in some way. Now Character. Character is learning a habit that makes us a better person. So that is on going but what about getting the scouts to make a roster and patrol agenda. Then following it. Or if they dont follow it, the fix what the problem is. How about scouts getting to opening on time. Or, dealing with difficult scouts without yelling or loosing control. Hopefully others will chime in. But remember, character is how you act when nobody is looking. How can you do that on a five-mile hike or campout?

What else. Well if you are suppose to use the Eight methods. Lets figure how to use uniform and advancement. Hey, how about a scouts skills station at every mile at the hike. Or, how about a couple of adults or older scouts setting up a car wreck simulation where the scout walk on it and have to treat them. Then watch and teach how to do first aid. Many of those skills are advancement.

Is this too much? Its like a fire hose coming at you. Maybe if you can just still a glass out, you can get a little of it. Read this and think a while. Then respond. Or better yet , send it to your PLC and let them make comments so you can respond.

Let us know how it goes, have fun and good luck.

Barry

Hi Nate

Sounds like you have a lot on your plate. Let me suggest this, where do you see this troop a year from now. What is it you want the PLC doing. Just sit down and dream, no boundaries, no limitations, no restrictions from adults. You are the chief, the boss and the SM. Don't worry about what you think you can or can't do, just write a list of what you want your troop to be a year from now. Have fun with this list. It has to a fun troop doing cool things. It needs to be the coolest troop in the world.

Don't show me the list yet, but let me know when you finish it.

Barry

All new troops go trough this. What the SM needs to do is cut the topics and goals in bit size chunks. For example, don't ask for a years worth of activities, start with six months. And don't just ask for a calender of program. Plan in small parts, one at a time. Every patrol and the adults get six ideas. Start with building a list for monthly program themes. The SPL ask for one idea from each group and write them on a board for all to see. he continues around each group until everyone has given their six. Then ask for campout themes. Once your finished with those, ask for for camp sites or locations. The reason for the adult having a turn is so they can prime the pump with ideas. Once you have the three list, the SPL then ask each scout to pick his six favoites. The scout should be encourage to walk around the list discussing them. When each feels ready, he puts a mark next to the their six favorites. After they are all through, count the votes and you have your program themes, camping theme and locations.

Next, put up calenders on the walls and have them pick which themes go to which months and where. When we went to breaking up the task, our Annual planning went from eights hours to three.

Also, scouts don't have the experience of adults, they must have some kind of guideline or agenda for their meetings. The SPL Handbook has a good example, so give the SPL the book and teach him how to make the agenda before each meeting. His gaol goes from just doing a confusing meeting and seeing what they get done, to getting the agenda completed. Much easier gaol to start with.

Adults should stay quiet with only the SM talking. In this case, I think the SM must help by asking questions that lead the SPL and PLC in a direction of thought and conversation. This is an art each SM has to develop.

Hopefully this will help give give your SPL a start. Sounds like a fantastic kid. I like the chat room idea for several reasons. One it has it's own bonding of ideas and team work. It is a form of team communication which is second in difficulty only to delegating. And I always cheer a scout who thinks outside the box. I agree these guys still need to have normal meetings, but I would not throw water on any ideas intended to help productive meetings. You have a great start here. Nurture this start and everyone will grow from the experience.

This is a wonderful time for you guys right now. Enjoy.

Barry

Hmm, tough one. Respect has to be earned, so that is a long range plan. But, when working with scouts, you change bad behavoir with self motivation. First, I would make sure that everytime this happens in the troop, the SPL and/or the PLC deal with it as best they can. Fighting is outside of the scout law, so ask them to deal with the scouts and make sure they know you can advise on ways to do that. The next thing is that your main job as the SM is behavoir. You don't have to hide this, let the scouts know. Everytime they pull somethng like this, ask them to visit you where you can sit down and have a converstation. Ask them questions. Do you know what you did? How does that fit against the Scout Law. Do you know it's wrong, then why do you do it? The objective is get the scouts to admit what they are doing is wrong and that they need to change. Then have them set a gaol to make a change and let them go. It's not your job to punish, that is up to the PLC, but everytime these two scouts get out of line, have that little talk. Over and over, have the little talk. Man to man, not in anger, just asking the questions.

I once had a scout, who was pretty persistant, finally ask me, "when are we going to quit having these meetings?". Then he answered his own question, until I change or quit the troop, right? Sharp scout.

Make sure what ever you, do not deal with the situation with emotion. If you feel anger, tell the scout to go sit somewhere and you will come get them when you are ready. If you need more time, ask the scout to call his parents. In this case, ask the ASM to take his son home because he is a problem, that you and the SPL will deal with next week. After working with scouts like this for a couple of years, you will see your junior leaders do it the same way. Quietly, no yelling, and motivating the scouts with bad behavior to change.

Good luck, behavoir is always a challenge.

Barry

Good thoughts imascouter. I've learned for anything to be a tradition in a unit, it has to done three years, or three times. Your points are valid and I beleive what we need is something simple at the district level that can be repeated for three years. So, whatever your idea, make it happen three times and you will to a measurble degree accomplished your task.

With that in mind, one idea is motivate all the troops to take on an activity badge for a couple of weeks in the Spring or Fall so that the Packs get use to visiting troops for a few badges. Designed correctly, one Den probably could get three or four during that time while at the same time visiting the troops, seeing boy run in action, Troop adults talking to Webelos parents, and giving the Den Leader a well deserved break.

As for who's in charge. The SPL with the resources of his PLC and adult leaders can do the job. The hard part is encouraging the idea to the all Troops so that it becomes a District tradition. The packs will go the path of least resistance.

Good points imascouter.

Barry

Very Cool!

Barry

I believe anyone who is seen is a role model. Even we adults still have role models. What we need to understand is that everyone has good and bad habits or behaviors. The parents of the scouts have to measure the good against the bad and choose the role models they want for their sons. I can't imagine a parent turning away from a rather large SM, half those in our District would be disqualified, but you never know. Many believe the behavior of smoking is more harmful than homosexuality, many believe just opposite.

I try and point it out to adult leaders like this. Our council has access to recycled plastic mugs. One adult about 15 years ago started making brands so that the scouts could brand there mug and show all the activities they participated in the council. Many units now have there own brands as well. Anyway, imagine the mug as the scout, and each brand as one adult. Your brand will stay with that scout forever. You have to decide what your brand looks like.

Good discussion.

Barry

leave the scouts in reguler patrols were the older scouts are role models. Encourage any scouts who wants to do a high adventure trek, what ever it is, to start a Venture patrol for that trek. Scouts interested in doing that trek become a member of that patrol until the trek is over. Then they go back to their other patrol. You will find a couple of scouts hopping from trek to trek, but most do not. You maintain the patrol structure and encourage a more adventurious program at the same time. And what I like about it is there dosn't have to be any age reqirements other than what the trek requires. You may have a Scout who wants to peddle across Oklahoma, why not, it's a fairly flat state. And you have a 12 year old bike racer who would love to go. Now he can.

Barry

I wasn't going to respond because after awhile these replies are like ping-pong, is too, is not, is too, is not. But twin_wasp served one over that reminded me of an incident while I was a cub master. I needed an Assistant Cub Master, so I approached a dad who I was told was an Eagle Scout. He said he wouldn't become a scout leader because he was an atheist. He then followed by explaining how scouting gave him a window of adults believing in God. It allowed him to see both sides of religion and later as an adult he made the choice. He said had it not been for the scouts, there would not have been a choice, he would have started as an atheist. He had so much respect for the examples that scouts provided that he didn't want to confuse boys today. He wanted his son to see men who believed in God so he could choose later.

You said it yourself, boys are very acute observers at this age. Role models will influence them and scouting holds the line to one example of how a man should behave. If we don't set a standard, we take away choices. True, some boys will choice differently, but at least they got to see the difference.

(Hey, is twin-wasp referring to an airplane?)

Have a great scouting week.

Barry

My experience is the Scout needs at least a year of Troop experience before he is mature enough to work well with a Den. Seems like they need that much time to grow into more of being a boy scout mentor instead of one of the guys. It's tough in this day and age though, a lot of adults want their scouts taking on leadership responsibilities after six months. They don't understand that it's OK to just let them enjoy having fun. The program is designed to be there when they are ready. I rarely had trouble with 12 and 13 year old Den Chiefs.

Also training is important. We train our own and teach them how to control the scouts, get them to respect the scout sign, how to initiate helping the leader, running games, but letting the adult lead. It worked well for us.

Have a great scouting day.

Barry

Hi rockymtnscouter, Bw is right, you guys need to make a change in your positions to encourage a healthy program. But assuming for the moment that your problem is as you presented, you need to find a third party to present the problem. We have a good Unit Commissioner who handles these situations very well when the CC can't solve the problem. The DE is another source but that also depends of their ability to listen and suggest solutions. Another possibilty is the Charter rep. or a respected member from another unit. We had a situation solved by the Wood Badge Counselor of the problem adult. He was the only person the adult trusted. And sometimes it is us who is wrong. The third person can see the whole picture without prejudice or bias which can bring integrity to the solution.

Good luck,

Barry

I think there is no less respect for our military. The space program is just a single focal point of all the good we view of Americanism. It represents us. What makes us unique in the eyes of the world is that we appear limitless in our power and they see our Military as our strength. But we Americans feel our strength comes from the courage to look into the unknown and explore it. We use our Military to protect that strength, not to push it. One reason so many foreigners move to the U.S. is because there are no limits to who we can be, and where we can go. How many times have your heard that the United States is the land of opportunity. I remember very well the first shuttle landing. I was very proud for us all.

Barry

We have been suggesting more training at the RT for several years, but the professionals have resisted it because RT is designed to hand over the next months themes and program features. This year our Training committee started something new, we now teach Scout Leader Basic Fundamentals at all the RTs. This was design to try and fix the confusion of the new Scout leader Training program. We wanted unit leaders to know they can start the first step of adult training by sending their leaders to RT. We also set in stone all the other Scouter Specific training every forth month on the first weekend so the unit leaders don't have to search for a training schedule to know the next training date. That also includes Youth Protection and First-aid. We will add other classes like water safety and needed classes as we get better. The only control we don t have is outdoor leader training. If we did, that would be the second weekend following the specific training. How much easier can it get?

Anyway back to the story, when Council found out that we were doing Scout Leader training at RT, they brought it up at the Council Training meeting to debate the idea off. But when we pointed out that we had 40 participants at the normally slow December RT and more than doubled the RT, the debate went the other way. Our February Scouter Specific Class last week was the highest numbers since the new training program started a year and a half ago. February is seen as a low training month because it's before the crossovers for troop leaders and after the Fall Cub training. Needless to say, Council is watching now.

Now, in my view, RT has to change with the culture. We are now a fast paced society with little time for a RT designed to review monthly themes. I think the switch has to be changed to training and unit guidance to improve programs. Personally I'm not sure there is any kind of real future with RTs anymore, but I'm willing to feel out different ideas. I can tell you adding training sure has made a big difference for us. Good suggestion BW

Barry