Eagledad

Yes, it is a seperate issue, that's why I didn't want to wonder around too much. There are many factors to scouts continuing in their scouting experience. I tend to focus on the problem that appears over and over. At least around here, I think the weak den leaders is at least 50% of the problem

Your right about National, and I asked our professionals how they track Webelos so I could find out why my findings seem so different. They didn't have a good reason but they did explain that National doesn't always look at numbers so much as they poll families and leaders. That makes since, that is what I did.

I found that in one pack, you could have two dens with completely different crossover numbers. When I talked to the families, I found the scouts in one den hated their webelos experience while the other den had full expectations to crossover. Another interesting fact I learned was that you could have a completely un-Webelos like den, no camping, no hiking or out doors program, just basically crafts or something. But if they were having fun and visited troops, they crossed over. It wasn't so much the program had to be the cool Webelos outdoor program, it just had to be a fun with some expectation that Troops was the next step. Surprised me.

Hey Bob, thanks for your time, I learned a lot.

Barry

>>My suggestion to packs is to have a webelos transition person who knows and My suggestion to packs is to have a webelos transition person who knows and understands good boy scouting. have them visit the troops and evaluate the programs. Then hold those troop leaders to the quality of program your Webeols deserve in a troop.

Make it JLT! I was one of those SMs who asked scouts to be Den Chiefs because I know how well it helped the Den leaders. But, what I learned was the Patrol leaders who had Den Chief experience where much farther ahead in leadership skills. They were comfortable controlling the group. They knew how to handle disapline better and they had confidence in their leadership. As a JLT Director, I can tell you that no matter what skills the scout has, if he has confidence, he is already three quarters way to good leadership.

We started making Den chief the first offical JLT experience for our scouts. We give them about two hours instruction then sent them off. We let packs know we were lookiing for dens, but that's never really been a problem because packs remember us. I was going to add this to the JLT thread, but since it came up. I'll start it here. I am so convienced by the Den Chief experience that I am working to add it as a Council JLT guideline. Many districts do Den Chief training and my hope is that more will make it a higher priority if they see it as part of their leadership development program.

Good suject twocubdad

Barry

Thank you BW. Very interesting and refreshing to here for some strang reasonl. I must chew on this for a while because there are some struggles in scouting that need attention.

I feel that eduacation is a starting place but the difficulty in this is the leadership has to lead first. And that is the problem I have run into starting with the Council on down.

Persistance has gotten me a long way in scouting, and I think this is one of those areas that needs a lot of it.

So let me present a situation that you have already read from me. Cub units today have a little more than the can handle, for a lot of reasons Webelos leaders struggle and don't provide a program the makes a boy want to continue to troop programs. We can banter the reasons, but I have watch this for a long time and I know that we can bring more Webelos to Troops if we could just identify those weak dens.

Other Districts that have an 85% or greater crossover have active membership committees that monitor the Bears and Webelos to watch for problems. I thought of doing this but as I said before, I beleive simplicity so the program can be handed over to the next adult. I want to use what should already be there.

My question is how do you see your solution to my dilema?

I will leave it at that for now and think around your post.

Thanks again.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

>>Major problems to your points are that In most of the BSA Unit Commissioning is broken. It has been broken for decades, (Many at the National level know it they just don't know how to fix it) but thats another thread.

Hi Bob, been out a while. I guess we have to get through this.

>>But no where has the BSA ever used the number of Eagles as a measure of a units program.>>>"Oh well, I guess the farther away you are from the scouts, the harder it is to find common successes to praise."

With all do respect Yoshimi, this is the most un-scout-like post I've read on this forum. Free speech not with-standing, the Scout Law should be a minimum standard. Would you like a reference?

Barry

>>We are very much boy led. But Boy Led doesn't mean no guidance, no help, no suggestions, and no goals. Our schedule is fungible and very much influenced by the boys. In fact if we were just pushing one could make Eagle even faster than we lay out. I guess it depends on one's view point.

Hi Bob

I guess YOUR Council doesnt track Eagle success, but ours delivers a good job speech with numbers every four months. Oh well, I guess the farther away you are from the scouts, the harder it is to find common successes to praise.

Our Troop doesnt track rank annually, at least we don't add the numbers. The SMHB says, ideally scouts should get to first class in their first year. I have not been able to find how they determined that, but it may have come from the same study that suggests the ideal troop size somewhere around 30. I've seen several SMs take that first year suggestion to heart and stump their program with too much focus on that one method.

We do watch losses if that helps you. Between 5 to 10 percent for the first year scouts when we finally developed a New Scout program we liked. By the way, typically those losses came in the first six months. I found that to be about the same in units around us. I would enjoy finding out if that is true nationally, but they dont track that.

Thanks for the reply. Have a good evening.

Barry

>>I am curious about the posters who say that leadership training should begin in the troop early on, when in fact that has been the program for over ten years.

Hi Dan

Junior leader training comes under many titles. JLT is more of a general term referencing junior training of some type. The BSA produced a JLT Kit for units which many folks think about when they hear JLT. But there are many other names for Unit and District JLT type Training called PLD patrol leaders training. But there are so many names and acronyms that you still have to ask about the type of course. There are several Council course names alone. JLTC, Pine Tree, Brownsea and so on. JLT Thunderbird is new to me but I really like that one. That one could have a really cool logo and patch.

Hope this helps

Barry

The SM Handbook and the PLC portion of the SM Specific training class (which I teach) only give guidelines and suggestions toward a healthy boy run program. These are starting places for a healthy program foundation, but as the scout grows and the program grows, the dreams of these young men push the limits and so we must push out ours. If we put limitations on the scouts program, we will stand in the way of growth. The hardest job a Troop scout leader has is getting out of the way of the scout.

Im not suggesting everyone jump to the weekly format because we are all different. I am only suggesting that those who have, have found it to work better because it is easier on the scouts, the adults and the boy run program. Sst3rd, our meetings are basically the same as yours. It is done before all the other scouts arrive and just about all the planning is done there with the ASPL polishing it. We have an advantage that the SM can coach the SPL after the meeting and then he only has to wait a week to try the idea. 4, 7 or 8 weeks are a long time to wait. We tried and it was frustrating because the SPL and PLC made basically the same mistakes and the adults had to maintain order. Also, when the SPL assigns task or ask for ideas from the patrols, a month is way to long to check on the progress of the task. He spent too much time on the phone and it required a lot of discipline from a 13-year-old Patrol Leader to keep up. Weekly reports are much easier for younger leaders.

As for adults in the meeting, we found it was impossible for adults to let the scouts run the meeting. I have yet to see a meeting run with more than one adult where they didnt push some thought or idea. Its like trying to get men to ask directions. We are not wired that way. So we keep the adults in hallway out of site only listening. If there needs to be any adult input, they can ask the SPL later. The SPL only needs to wait a week to give the adult suggestion to the PLC. Works very well and allows the SPL to maintain control.

Our SPL calls the SM the night before the meeting to review the agenda and to get the adult announcements. We changed to this away from meeting before PLC meetings because sometimes the SM and SPL needed more time. Sometimes either the SM or SPL were late for the meeting. A call the night before is relaxing with very few limitations.

The SM and SPL review the performance of the PLC and Troop meeting the last thing before the SPL locks the doors and gives the key back to the SM. Rarely does the SM interrupt the SPL during the evening. Whether he is dealing with a misbehaving scout or directing the program, we want him to feel the aches and pains of the job so he feels motivated ask questions. I wrote down little notes then reviewed them later that night. The SPL was encouraged to do the same. I always asked questions, never directed criticism. Thank goodness too, sometimes things werent as them seem and the SPL was right.

As for the BSA basic Troop model, I have been involved with the new adult training in the Council and I am responsible for our Council JLT program. When we sit down talking about training courses, basically we think of the new scoutmaster. We are thinking of the starting place and basic structure of his program that gives him and the scouts time to get their feet on the ground. Eventally the SM should step back as the wheels are turning and lets the scouts grow. I find the uniform discussions interesting because sometimes it shows the limited vision of us adults. Our parental and adult nature naturally think in terms of looks and color, but character is on the inside and is shaped by experiences. Same goes for the way we only think our way is the only way we don't let these guys try something different from our vision. As I said before, we shouldnt try to make the boy fit in our perception of a boy scout. We should ask him what he thinks and then ask why. We should test his actions and ideas against the Scout Law or Oath, not our vision. He may have a better idea, and many times does. Are you prepared to let him try that idea? What are the limitations that would permit him to try these new ideas? That is why WB was changed, the adults were trying to make the scouts fit in the adults Patrol Method experience. Patrol Method is not a mold to force each scout into one shape. Patrol Method is our tool, it's the hands of experience and struggle shaping the scout like a piece of clay. Each one is different with different needs and ideas. The shape depends on his personal experience. The Methods in scouting have to be flexible. That is why I try to teach adults in my classes to think of the program in terms of character, citizenship and fitness. Its not how many times the PLC meets, its what they get from the PLC meeting and is it meeting their needs.

First we must get our programs on the ground, the SM Handbook, the SPL Handbook and the Patrol Leaders Handbook will do that very well. But once it gets started, we adults must start pushing out our limits and thinking outside the box so that the scouts have room to push out their limits and think outside their box. Its unfortunate, but the adults in the boy run troop, not the scouts, limit boy growth.

Ive got to tell you that while thinking about our PLC meetings, a lot of memories of scouts saying, "Oh I get it!" were brought out. When I think about all I have watched from your sons and mine, I get pumped and fired up. This program is the best at building men, and we are here in it right now doing it. What you do today with one boy for one minute may change his life forever. Thank you God because I love this scouting stuff.

Hey, have a great day, I am trying to get to the JLT stuff. We have some great experience on this forum.

Barry

Hi Dan

That was me and I should have been clearer. We have a 20 to 30 mminute PLC meeting followed by the hour and half Troop meeting every week. We change to this format so the SM could coach the SPL on a weekly basis, so the PLC could set gaols and monitor them weekly, and because practice makes perfect. Our guys will attend at least 25 PLC meetings during their six month time in office, and really twice that adding post Planning meetings and campout PLC meetings. Our guys really like the four 20 minute meetings a month over the two or three hour meetings once a month on the weekend.

>how much does the PLC plan or do.

Pretty much everything. Sometimes they do it badly, but that is boy run.

>In your troop does the PLC plan the troop meetings with an agenda?

The SPL is expected to write and agenda for every PLC meeting and campouts. I beleive agendas are so important for a successful leadership that our scouts at JLTC will plan at least a two a day. It's the first lesson I gave to the SPL after election.

>Brainstorm for High adventures?

Our Venturing patrol does that at a seperate plannng session as well as the PLC does a six month planning at a seperate session after an election. We plan the second six months of the annual agenda so the new PLC can walk into their six months already planned.

>Plan and setup campouts?

Partically, the ASPL in charge of program does a lot outside. The PLC handles all the business issues, troop gear, rules, disapline and so on. They even do the tour permits.

>Or is this done outside the PLC and only high levels >details talked about at the PLC, like is the agenda done >and they approve it?

I have found it depends on the ASPL. We teach the ASPL to plan all the details a month a head of time, then have the PLC give suggestions, then vote on it after the changes. But some scouts are more challenging than others. So it is somewhat dynamic and challenging for the SM. But the PLC is use to doing it all. My motto is a good SM is a lazy SM. My goal was to not attend at least the last months PLC meetings except for adult annoucements. No other adults are allowed except by permission of the SPL. Which he always gives.

Most adults who saw the troop before and after we changed to the 20 to 30 minute PLC format believe it made the most dramatic improvement to our boy run program. Honestly I can't see how a PLC could keep up with only monthly meetings. Most loose interest after an hour. Most adults anyway.

Sorry for the confusion Dan, does this help you?

Barry

I might bring them together in relaxed atmosphere and just talk. Eventually one of them could bring the subject up and let it go from there.

I might ask the counselor to call and to see if your son has questions. See where you son goes with that.

I admire you asking because the MB program was designed with this in mind. Small steps toward man size confidence.

I love this Scouting stuff.

Barry

Great replies all, but my point is the few weak den leaders are the big problem in the numbers. I learned the hard way while I was trying a fix to this problem, you can have the best District Webelos to Scouts program in the world, but if don't find those weak dens who do little to be seen, you don't fix this problem. I'm open for other ideas, but I believe the Commissioner is the best practical solution for this problem because it is basically already their job.

Other Districts developed huge Membership Committees to track Webelos, but I believe in simplicity and repeatability. The commissioner corp. is already out there.

Let me ask you a question that might help friendlyduck and I beleive shemgren. A new commissioner might need a check list to determine if a den is really struggling. IF you had to give him THREE questions to check that the den is weak or failing, what would they be? Now be careful, I have ask this before and many responses were more to what a perfect den would look like. My new commissioner is only looking for the failing den. I will start.

Average one den meeting a month.

No outside activities.

No camping or any future plans for it.

Barry

This makes sense. I was told that the real purpose of the Tour permits is a check list. It gives the unit guidelines for making sure everything has been taken care of for a safe trip. Not having a permit does not disqualify the Scouting insurance. When I learned this, I developed more respect for the permit because I found it did help us to cross the "T"s and dot the "I"s.

Can you verify this Bob?

Barry

kwc57, youre dealing with tradition. Traditions are good because they add spirit to the program, but can be bad when it rides over common sense. Problem is most Cub leader dont see the big picture. Packs build their programs without insight to problems down the road. I cant complain, Cubbing is very hard work, I appreciate any program that goes the extra effort and wish more could. Still, you have the future success of your boys to think about.

The way I see it, you have two concerns, loyalty to the pack, and registration dates. Its good you are thinking about this now so you have time educate your committee and work out some solutions. We get a few Webelos from packs that crossover late and our troop encourages them to start having their meetings with us. We give them a Troop Guide and treat them as a patrol. The only problem can be if the pack insists on waiting to get the AOL awards. You cant get the AOL if youre a boy scout. That is important. The sooner you sign up as a boy scout, the sooner the Troop Guides can start to sign off advancement. Our pack tried to have all AOLs and ceremonies done by January if possible to prevent a conflict. Even if the pack wont give the AOL, that is not a big problem. The main thing is to get your guys use to the troop program.

After you point out the problem to the pack committee, suggest the campout moved to April or even late March. Our Pack did this and it worked fine. The weather is pretty good by then.

Be very careful about filling out Scout Applications and don't give them to the Troop until you are ready to be officially be in the troop. You dont have to give them to the SM to sign off the AOL requirement. I have seen more problems by Troops turning applications before the packs apply for the AOL. It's a silly requirement that I've seen causes more confusion then good.

I also try to warn the Den Leaders that they are the ones responsible for where and how their Scouts crossover. Packs and troops aren't always that organized and they can and will get it wrong, especially if they are following tradition. I would suggest your den start visiting Troops now. Ask for the four best in your area. Get the visits out of they way so those requirements arn't holding up the scouts.

Really you don't owe the pack anything except loyalty, so I would approach it that way. But like I said, Cubbing is hard work. Work with the committee so that everyone comes away feeling good about the solution. Look for a solution that is seen as better for the pack and more fun. Teach them so they are prepared for the following dens. I think you will find most troops with work with you, so it's getting the pack to understand. Truthfully I'm not to worried about your Scouts because you understand the situation of new scouts and what to do. That helps a lot.

I am not sure I answered your question.

Barry

Hi friendlyduck

Love to know where that name came from. You have hit a very soft spot for me. I have watched and studied the Webelos crossover problem for several years. The problem is Webelos are bored out of their minds and they think boy scouts will be the same. I learned the problem is a Cub Scout structure problem. Oh I know we have discussions about cub leaders and troops not doing their fair share and there is some truth to those statements, but my observations are the big problem is the complexity of the Cub Scout program wearing out the adults.

We get about three years from the average volunteer. Not just scouting, but church, sports and civic programs all have the same human factor problem of three years and we want a break. After that, other motivations like passion, stature and personal goals have to keep us going. I found that most of the scouts who dont crossover know it in the middle first year of Webelos because their program is not fun even then. They finish the second year because it is successful ending to a lot of time in the program. Some blame sports, band and other activities, but I only found that to be an excuse for boys who werent having fun.

See the average bear leader is a female and most of them started at Tigers. In their third year they are looking for a break or at least slowing down, but when they look at the Webelos book, they see a new aggressive program of camping in the hot and cold whether, sleeping in uncomfortable sleeping bags on the hard ground. The activity badges require lots of outdoor activities and transportation. The program is design more toward male type activities and that is uncomfortable territory. I found that most of these leaders told the pack to find someone else but as is common for those us who where pack leaders, no one else stands up. So the bear leader is stuck either disbanding the den and disappointing a lot of families, or continuing. These leaders try hard at first, but the 20 activity badges alone become overwhelming and after awhile the program goes down hill.

I have tried a few ideas to solve the problem, but I learned from districts with a 80% or higher crossover is you have to monitor each den and identify the weak dens as quickly as possible. Then you need to go in and help the leader. I believe the Commissioner Corp is perfect for this. IF they could check on the Webelos leader maybe once a month, I think they could quickly identify the leaders who have a boring program. Then the Commissioner could seek someone to help, I think a nearby Troop. The troop could get a few of the scout to teach a couple activity badges and take some burden off the leader. They could take these Webelos on a campout with the Webelos parents and maybe even give the Webelos leader a day off. The troop will fill in the fun. There are other things that will help too, I believe a little more Webelos training to help them learn how to use the parents on the Activity badges or maybe have two hour and half meetings a month. But if we could just first identify these weak dens, we would be 80% to solving the problem. The other 20% is easy. I believe the Commissioners are the angles we need for these Webelos.

Did that help much?

Barry

>>I don't believe in using sexual orientation as a litmus test for Scouting

>>I got riveted about the time you mentioned losing 50% of first year Scouts... We've seen that for the 5 years I've been in the Troop and I'm still not knowing where to start.

>>Good role models for the BSA should be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. And no, I don't view "clean" as having a sexual connotation.

Your SPL position has very little respect. It could be you or just bad leadership in the past that has set a pattern. It doesn't matter. What you need to do is start a trend back the other way.

The suggestions from the list are very good. I will add a couple others.

1. You need to come together with the minds. Sit down with your SM and suggest a day of talking with the PLC for about three hours. Talk about each persons responsibilities and lead into how the SPL works with the PL who works with the other scouts. If you see a problem, how will your guys deal with it? I never allowed my SPL to yell. That forced him to ask other leaders to do their jobs like quieting down the patrol, or leading an activity or just getting a patrol to come to the opening on time. Now you're getting everyone on the same page. Then talk about goals. Have the PLC set three goals. It's very hard to walk down a trail if you don't know where you are going. They could be a simple as making sure the meetings start on time and finish on time. Uniform goals or running a meeting without adults. That one may need a while. But set some goals that you and the PLC can measure. If all this sounds like a few hours of JLT, you are right.

2. Start doing 20 or 30-minute PLC meetings each week before the Troop meetings instead of one three hour monthly meeting. I have found that one 3-hour PLC meeting a month doesn't work well for team building or troop management. To much time between delegating responsibilities and checking on progress. You have to practice something to learn something. Yes, a 30 minute meeting doesn't get enough done at first, but it will force you to get organized and build a good agenda before the meeting. And most scouts will like not having to sit during a boring three-hour meeting. A 30-minute meeting doesn't have time to get boring.

3. Make and agenda for everything, especially PLC meetings. Most SPL performance start degrading when they try to remember what they are suppose to do instead of just looking at the agenda. This seems like a small thing, but I noticed our SPL wasn't getting through meetings about the time he started memorizing his agenda, or not even making and agenda. My experience is in most Troops, bad agenda practices are the number one problems with junior leaders. If you don't have an agenda, either the adults take over, or the whole program starts to suffer.

Finally, sit down with you SM if you can and explain how hard it is to be corrected during a meeting. It's sets a tone for the whole troop and nothing like always looking over your shoulder. Make a deal with him. Explain you will come to him after each meeting after before you go home and take notes of his comments if he just leaves you alone to struggle during the meeting. If you start taking notes, his ego will give you some space. I know, I have been that SM.

Don't expect big changes at first, nothing happens fast in a boy run troop. Look at yourself as the farmer plowing a field to start a new crop. You are trying to start new habits in the troop. What you do now may affect the troop for many years to come. Now that is cool.

You came to a good place for advice, please let us know how it goes.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

>>The problem is it's not getting done now so what can we do to change it?

I will start. I'm excited to learn what Bob White knows. I had a couple of talks with National and have a little insight, very little, but here is what I think your going to see. Not a whole lot of changes for JLTC. But more on Unit JLT. Truth is JLT is a SM responsibility and JLTC should be one step in the JLT experience. Somehow though, SM started using JLTC to do their training. As I said before, once the adult is taken out of the loop, he looses focus on the objective of development of leadership. Once a bad habit starts, it can only be changed by retraining. But once the SM started sending his scouts off for someone else to do the training, he did two things. He shifted off one of his primary respnsibilities, and he lost the one program that teaches Patrol Method. Over time, the replacement adults never learned the values of leadership development and we started a trend of building bad habits on bad habits.

Our Council is developing a unit JLT program to give the units so that we can get adults back in the business of developing leadership, and at the same time, reinforce Patrol method everytime they run a JLT course.

Barry

I had the joy of overhauling our Council JLTC program. Our program was suffing for reasons I can explain later. I am a little surprised by the focus on JLTC. I have a lot of experience in JLT and there are several points I think needed to be addressed. There is too much to address all at once, but I will start with a few points I think are important to JLT.

1. JLT (Junior leader Training) is not needed much in a well run boy run program. A troop program was designed that the lessons of leadership be handed down to the scouts as they progress through their ranks and experience with the Patrol Methods. That being siad, JLT is required for weaknesses in the program. The point I am making is JLT should be dynamic to change and meet the needs of the programs, not repeated for the sake of everyone else does it. This is why I think the BSA JLT program fails after it's first run. It doesn't change, it's doesn'answer all the questios units have, and it becomes boring because of it.

2.JLT is also a adult realignment program. Most programs start to struggle when the adults don't understand their roles in the boy run program. I beleive the need for JLT is required to teach adults boy run, patrol method and leadership as well as the boys. One reason JLTC is failing in the last few years is because the SMs are sending off their scouts to JLT training without a clue what the scouts learn or bring back. Once the scout is back in the unit, business is pretty much as usuall with the SM not allowing the newly trained lead to lead. While we made some dramtic changes in our JLTC (Junior Leader Training Confence), the biggest comments came from the units leaders who were forced to either attend three hours of training, or their scouts couldn't attend.

3.JLT (Junior Leader training) should be a hands on experience, not a show to watch. We learn from our struggles, we only struggle in our experience. Don't you find it interesting that the students are in patrols watching the staff (PLC) act out the very skills the students are going to be performing when they go back to their troops. Our Council change the patrols to PLCs and each scout then became a leader responsible for the program. I can explain later, but my point is that JLT should be as hands on as possible.

4. I have trouble with Wood Badge and JLTC. There is this long standing discussion of how to make one resemble the other so that the adults and scouts speak the same language. Wood Badge had to change because the adult leaders were going back and forcing the boys to run their patrols the same way as they experienced at Wood Badge. The failure in that is Patrol Methods is more a phylosphy than a model. But we didn't get that at Wood Badge. What the adults need to know for being a good Scout Leader is completely different from what a boy needs to know to be a good leader. IF adult taining and youth training continue to copy each other, boy run will fail. Scouting will turn into a camping club with adults telling boys how to act and dress. Troops will die at the age 14 and the BSA will try to save it with Venturing which will struggle because if you can't be a good unit leader in the troops, why would you be good in the older boy programs. We have to teach adults how to guide, coach and counsel leadership. If you want to talk the same language, great bring them to JLTC so they can get watch the boys in action. But talking the same language doesn't help much if the boys are not left to get hands on experience. WE have to teach adults on how to motivate the boys to ask the questions. Motivation comes from wanting to reduce the struggle.

5. JLT starts the day the scout joins the troop and goes on at least until he leaves scouting. The skills required for leadership start with scout skills, but I have found that 90% adults don't know why or how. They don't know why we should tie knots in this bungee cord society, so they lead the scout in a class, teach a knot and give him a badge without the scout even seeing what happened. Adults need to understand how the Eight Methods gets us from here to there. My concern is National has lost this understanding as well and looks for band aids like JLTC to stop the bleeding. Only to find a new wound developing somewhere else like Eagle mills and inmature older scouts.

OK, this is a lot, but I guess we have forever to discuss the JLT. It's one of my favorite subjects and I hope we can help SMs develop better and more fun training programs from the discussion. Sorry for the misspelling.

I love this Scouting Stuff

Barry