Eagledad

HI All

On top of all that Eagle1973, with the professional training that you listed, I don't think you need Wood Badge. Which leads to a different discussion of testing out. What if a person really is qualified?

Dan, I look at the roughly 50 more hours of training a ASM has to take just to get a trained patch, and I cringe. There some here who feel syllibuses should be followed almost word by word or it will degrade the training. How much more can one take before voluntering is nolong fun?

I always like hereing new ideas. What do you propose?

Barry

Normal excepted protocol is usually the CC delegating the task to a nomination committee or person. That committee or person searches and weeds out the possible candidates. The CC can be part of the process, but more often than not, they wait it out to approve the nominating committees selection or at least a final list. It is at the point they can sign off and accept or disapprove and ask the committee to continue keep looking.

Our troop has done it this way as well as our District and Council Committee. In fact, we just got a new CE from the same process.

Barry

Nice reply whitewater. Welcome to the forum.

Barry

Hi All

>>The methods are all there I listed them on flip chart. We went over them one by one in an open discussion. I gave everyone a handout with them listed and an explanation of how to make them work or why they are important.

Hi All

>>Mom's who want to be active with their sons scouting and who speak up when they feel something is wrong are labeled "pushy" because they are intruding on a male dominated area.

Hi All

He wants to leave after only two months? This sounds like a very young scout, 13 or younger. That would make sense because he hasn't developed the confidence to be a leader yet, at least at the SPL level.

What he learns now will stay with him forever, so my thoughts are to get what positive learning from the situation that you can.

With what you have given us, I would sit down and explain that a leader is usually the rudder of the ship. It is a very small part of the overall workings of the whole ship. However it is very important to making sure the ship stays on course. He is responsible for keeping the PLC on track towards its goals. Now I don't know what your Troops goals are, but usually the younger and more inexperienced the SPL, the simpler his goals.

Guide him that this ASPL will give him practice with others like him. Teach him to use the ASPLs energy to achieving his troops goals. Guide him to run a good PLC meeting that sets the troop in motion and delegates task to keep the program on track. After that, all he has to do is watch and make sure everyone is doing their job, especially the ASPL. If the ASPL does all the work after that, all the better for the SPL.

I found that in a six month period, troop junior leaders work very hard the first two months trying to be great leaders, take the next two months off and let the troop fall to it's knees because they burned out the first two months, then spend the last two months working very hard again trying to save face. I imagine that giving him some room, the ASPL just might burn down and let the SPL take on some of the load. And if not, well the SPL has a good hard worker. Make sure you keep working with the SPL as the Troop leader. The ASPL does the work, but make sure the SPL gets his share of the credit and the privileges that come with the job, like maybe supper with the adults. Work with the ASPL as a servant as well and the supporter of the SPL and a team builder. IF he steps over the line, call him on it and guide him.

If you let the SPL go back to the patrol, he may not come back. As for the ASPL, hopefully he learns how to work as a team and what happens when he doesn't.

Good luck, I know it's always hard trying to do the best thing with these guys.

Barry

Hi All

I have to say the trend of this thread is very refreshing. Usually the topic of sheath knives takes off in the direction of "no way, not in my troop".

The only problem with sheath knives is they are caught up in a politically correct world where the BSA is as concerned about outward appearances as they are number of Eagles. It's about marketing. That being said, I believe the best marketing for Boy Scouting is a successful story of using a learned skill to express character. True, one isn't usually associated with the other anymore, but at one time it was understood that without the development of skills, there was no practice of character. Scouting is the adult world scaled down to a boys size and the Troop is a safe place where boys learn the habits of character by practicing the actions of it. You just can simply talk character into someone.

It has always been interesting to me that using a bow saw is of little concern in these discussions, yet it accounts for more injuries than axes, knives and hatchets combined. Many adults don't even realize that there are very few limits on scouts using power tools. The sheath knife has an image problem.

I'm for taking the approach of teaching safety by active use of the tool, not by fear of hiding it. Knowledge is a wonder thing in theory, but practice of that knowledge builds practical sense and quenches the thirst of curiosity.

I'm not sure how a scout attacking an adult with and axe brings anything to this subject, but it is an interesting story. How did you work with that scout?

Have a great scouting week.

Barry

Great Day All

Good answers from everyone. You have a couple of situations that make this a little more interesting. One is your troop is new to letting the scouts choose. Yet, it must start somewhere and this is as good a place as any. The other is the adults don't have experience in this situation either, so they are at the same place as the scouts. So along with the PLC, think about your goals first, then build the plan.

I agree with the others to let the scouts choose, but the PLC will need some help because there is no experience to base their plan. The way our troop learn to deal with large groups of new scouts was to start them in NSP, but encourage the other patrols to watch the new scouts and recruit them while at the same time encourage the new scouts to watch the regular patrols to find the one they would like to join. They can request the patrol or new scout at anytime, but we found it worked better for the PLC when a date was picked, which is one year for most troops. It happens to be six months for our troop.

At the same time, we encourage any scout to start new patrols. There are always a couple of scouts who think they can do better and look for opportunities. Our ASPL in charge of new scouts works with them to help them recruit full patrols, which included some new scouts. That is how we brought in large groups of new scouts without overhauling existing patrols, we just allowed the scouts to start new ones and it worked pretty well.

This is a learning experience for your program, so a lot of ideas are tempting. But it can still be done without the adult taking over or getting away from the program suggested in the Patrol Leaders handbook. Let the boy run method work and encourage everyone (scouts and adults) to think out of the box. Set a goal of building patrols, not breaking them up. The longer a patrol stays together, the more likely it will grow and become a team.

Good luck and congratulations on your new scouts.

Barry

>>That said, let me just say that I'll allow what some call "controlled failure" up to the point where that failure looks repetitive or has a negative impact on the delivery or enjoyment of the program for another Scout or Scouts.

Wonderful Day all

You are asking a question about the boys, but really what you want is how do the adults change their coaching and mentoring so the scouts grow with more confidence and independence in scout run.

90% of the scouts that come to JLTC have never used an agenda for most of their meetings. I don't know if this is part of your problem, but we teach in JLTC that the key to every good meeting starts with making an agenda. By the time our scouts leave the course, they have each personally filled out over two dozen agendas. They tell us later that they don't know how they ran meetings without one. This is the first lesson I gave to all my SPLs.

In your case, get an SPL Handbook and use the agenda in it. Eventually the scouts will get use to the format. I encourage the Patrol leaders to use an agenda for Patrol Corners that is basically the same as the SPL's. The idea behind that is the PLs learn from the role model.

Also, you are at a difficult age. 11-year-old scouts can be as boy run as the 15 year olds, but not with as much responsibility. Give them only what their maturity and experience can handle. Then fill in the rest with the adults. This is risky because the adults tend to hold and not give up responsibility, but in a young boy run program, the trick for the adults is to provide that help under the leadership of the SPL. That forces the adults to keep backing off as the scouts gain in maturity and experience. That will happen very fast at about the 13 to 14 year age, so wait for it and be prepared to get out of their way because at age 14, these guys will leave you in the dust.

You can judge how much responsibility they can handle by watching their perspective of the program. If at some point the scouts aren't enjoying the program because of too much responsibility, then it is time to aid the situation. But it is important for adults to find the scouts limits by pushing it. It is better to go a little to far and learn the limit than not going far enough and ending up afraid to let the scouts learn from their experience. Boys are very strong and will do fine so long as they can trust that screwing up is OK because the adults want you to learn from the experience. Look at every struggle as an opportunity to for positive growth.

I hope this helps. You have a difficult task ahead, but a very rewarding one. Just remember, in a truly boy run program, the adults have to learn more faster than scouts so that they don't get in scouts way.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Goodmorning DR

All the advice given is very good. To me it sounds like you are trying to handle this on your own. If that is the case, get the whole committee on board and get them to handle it. They need to allow her time to vent her frustration. But if all is as you say, the committee must then explain the facts and ask her to stop. I find these folks like this usually only continue when they feel they have and audience. I've learned that when a person like this feels they are the by themselves, they either step back or get out. You don't have to ask them to leave. Just give them expectations that forces them to choose to either behave or get out. But the key to this is to get your committee to take responsibility together and act. Give them opportunity to vent, but once everything is the best it can be, make sure the committee stands firm because once she sees her actions only work against her, she is force to make a choice.

As others said I would also make sure that District and Charter rep. participate or at least know everything going on so that they will support you as well.

We had a similar situation a couple of years ago. The committee voted to give the adults guideline to participating with the Troop. We informed the charter rep, the District Commissioner and the Council of our plans and they gave us full support. The CC met with the adults and gave them a written notice with verbal explanation. Later we heard through the grapevine these adults went to sue, but their lawyer told them there was nothing to sue for because we only ask them to act like adults. They choose to leave three months later.

You have the right for a peaceful program and to hold adults accountable. But, the unit must be united on how you deal with this or it wont get solved. It cant be the CM against the world. It has to be the whole unit working together to bring the best possible program to your sons. It was a very good team building experience for our committee.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Barry

You could explain that you want the scouts to use the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook which explains how the SPL is elected the same as the PL in your troop. The advantage of these books is both the scouts and adults work together from the same book.

Barry

>>I think and hope this makes sense, Barry.

>>If a boy comes to me and says "I want to be a leader and help the Troop" I will do everything I can to make it happen. Leadership is a method of Scouting just like the uniform or camping or advancement.

I really like the sound of your troop Shell. I wish Oklahoma was closer.

BArry

>>One's I have seen that scouters like are from authors of books we use.

Hi all

We have two basic rules for the scouts and one for the adults at summer camp. The scouts (and adults really) must have a buddy at all times and everyone must let their leader know where they are at. The adult rule is you cant walk to classes or activities with the scouts on the first day. You can show up a few minutes later and you can walk with the scouts as buddies after the first day.

I believe that the first summer camp is a boy's first real experience with independence. Scout camps are pretty safe and its hard to get lost, so we use it as a safe place to let 11 year old experience the independence of adulthood. As I keep asking first year adults who camp with us, what is the worst that can happen?

We have never had a scout get lost or complain. We have had scouts skip class, but that is not the adults problem other than living by the scout law. In just about every instance however, the scout suffers the consequences as his friends earn badges and advances while he stands there watching.

Good question FOG.

Barry

Good Day All

>>Why? We have an older youth/transitional adult position, and if you look at the unit JLT training package, the JASM is sorta out in left field.

Ideally, he's had unit JLT and Brownsea, and maybe even NJLTC at PTC...

HI All

Do a search on night camporees. We've done a couple of these and even planned and ran a couple enviting other troops. Very different and a lot of fun.

Barry

Hi All

I have thought about this idea for a couple years. I like the idea of fundraising and bringing more awareness of scouting to the community. Was it hard to set up?

Barry

>>For me, the patrol method seemed to be heavily emphasized in WB. Everything we did was as a patrol and we did create a pretty tight bond from the start.

Hello All

Interesting. If you were to ask my friends about me, touchy feely and new age would not come up in the conversation. Maybe traditional, annal and opininated, but touch feely. I understand those are just words but it seemed fitting to stand up at this point.

FOG, your not the first person to complain about the new WB Patrol Method, in fact lots of folks agree with you. What is it you really want from the course? If it is a time to just be in a patrol and act like a boy scout for a few days, then create a course that does just that. Our council has one of the finest out door training progras I've ever seen and you get your fill of Patrol Method from that. But I've not heard anyone who has taken the new WB course feel they missed out of Patrol Method in the course.

I joined Scouting as an adult with the expectation to help boys grow into a better man than they would have without scouting. Most all scouters say that, but the majority follow the program presented them. I choose to insure the program does what has been advertised for the 90 years or so. If my comments offend your style of scouting, all I can say is I attempt to write with the intention of adding one more perspective to the conversation. I have never tried to make anyone feel bad for their contributions to this forum. That would not be scout like.

New age? That hurt.

Hey, all have a great scouting day, even you FOG.

I love this scouting Stuff.

Barry

>>johnsned, read Eagle Dad's original comments.

Hi all

>> Where the heck are leaders supposed to learn how the patrol method works?>I still find it ironic that in my troop that the two graduates of MS Woodbadge 2001 are the ones that act like Den Leaders for Webelos III.

Hi All

Just got back from my first week as a staffer on WB. Hey Beav, we have something in common.

Anyway, I like the new course. I think it is much more appropriate for adult leader training than the old course. Many of the staffers still like the old course better, but they admit that the lesson content is better in the new course. I think they miss the way the old course applied the Patrol Method.

I always had trouble recomending the old WB course as a training course because I didn't feel it perpared adults for a boy run program, but this one does a good job of preparing adults to lead in any part of the BSA program.

Hey, you want to go get some valuable training and have some fun at the same time? Go to Wood Badge.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry