Eagledad

>>The difference in our posts is that Barry thinks he has changed from the scouting program and I am saying that what he did was change closer to the scouting program and that is why it is working better.

Good Oklahoma Morning All

>>What disturbs me is that, in the situation you refer to, what the unit was doing originially wasn't anything like the BSA program and they thought it was. So they changed it to work better.

I've seen Councils that gave out special Council shoulder patches for Troops that did extra requirements added to the Quality Unit award.

Barry

Very good points and ones that I have thought on as well. It was the Girls Scouts that showed me a lot of this. Like I said, they are very successful at this age. First the burnout part which is the most important part to me. The Tiger program struggles because the boys don't fit in the maturity of the rest of the pack. The Tiger program needs to be at a much simpler activities. I've seen some very successful Tiger programs where they only met once or twice a month. The plannning was done by families where each family took on one month. In fact no family planned more than two meeting in the tiger year in our Pack. In the Girl Scout model there is no Pack meetings so that takes pressure off the Cub Master.

The Girls Scouts don't have the burnout problem we have because they switch programs every three years like the BSA use to do until the 80's. The program change encourages leadership changes, kind of like what we see between the Pack and the Troop.

I don't know your reason for not going before first grade, but the reason I suggest that is because the maturity is the same for both age groups and there are some families that want a program for the family at that age.

In my dream world, Tigers would just go away. It hasn't worked easily into the program because of the difference in maturity. The only reason Tigers was created was to compete against Campfire Kids who started recruiting boys in the first grade to get boys before cubs. But their program is doing worse than the BSA.

I have a friend who got some numbers that was a real surprise to me. He said Nationaly only one scout out of eleven makes it from Tigers to Webelos II. I've been told the highest loss of Cubs scouts accures at the Tiger age. I don't know if that is true Nationally. It is true in my area.

Good response NJ. How do you feel about Tigers?

Barry

Hi All

Hypothetical Pipe Dreams, Cool. I have two.

First, I would take Tigers out of the Cub program and create a new two-year program for kindergarten and first grade aged scouts. The crossover rate of Webelos to Troops is less than 50% of and the Tigers program has the lowest crossover rate of any Cub age.

Many Cub leaders say that the Tiger program is the most demanding part of the pack program because the maturity of Tiger age boys is so different from the rest of the Pack ages. Tiger age scout are at the age where they cant read, write and havent developed the discipline to sit still for more than 10 minutes. And through the years I found the major cause of the Webelos crossover problem is burned out leaders. Experts say that you get less than three years from your better adults in volunteer organizations. The Cub program is five years long with the Webelos program the last two years.

I meet a lot of parents that want some kind of scout program for their kindergarten age sons. The BSA is always looking for ways to recuit numbers and a precub program for kindergarten and First Grade boys would fit better for there maturity. The Girls Scouts do this with great success.

My second change would be retiring the Venture Patrols. I believe them to be the most destructive part of the Troop program because they create a clear division between younger and senior scouts. Not only just in age, but because their very name implies adults and scouts to go into the older scout program with the idea of getting away from the from the rest of troop. These patrols force more adult hands on intervention at all levels of the troop, and they retard scout leadership development and overall scout growth. The troops I see that do best with Venture Patrols are the very large troops, 100 scouts or more, because those troops require a lot of adult intervention anyway to control the scouts.

I would like to see the BSA get back to Leadership patrols for senior scout leaders and create a new type of temporary patrol called Adventure Crews.

Troop Adventure Crews would not be aged based, but instead limited only by the physical and mental requirements needed for that adventure. This would allow any scout to organize a crew for anything from a day at six flags all the way to treks at Philmont or Northern Tier. The crew leaders would have to plan, find adults, and train for the adventure if required.

The advantage of the Adventure Crews are they take away limits and restrictions on the Troop outdoor program and give scouts the ability to plan any adventure they can dream. The crews would expand the opportunities of leadership development, planning skills development and expand scout growth. While I dont like them, you could even have Adventure crews in a troop with aged based patrols.

Troops I know with a similar program have very low turnover at all ages, very high leadership skills and high advancement because now advancement gets back to scouts ranking themselves by skills that they learn, not by the stature of the rank. There is no advantage to adults having to push scouts to advance with in a time limit because the program naturally encourages scouts to learn more skills and advance. It gets back to more boys controlling their personal agendas in the troop. It makes the troop a lot of fun and enhances the methods.

Barry

Hi All

>>How do you make the notes important? How do you muster some ambition in the scribe to take his job seriously and make a difference in the troop?

Hi All

>>We do weekly PLCs, too. They're standups, right after the meeting's over with and the service Patrol's cleaning up. SPL reviews the meeting and goes over the TMP for next week.

Hi FScout

>>Either they need more meeting time, or adult intervention, and adults taking over doesn't teach leadership. Your approach sounds like something we might try.

Hi All

I think ideas for program improvements is a good topic that can have positive effects in other units. Sorry that Im starting it under a new subject title, but as we say in Oklahoma, That other water was looking pretty sour, so Im fishing a new pond. I hope to keep this thread in a positive tone.

One program change we made that really boosted our boy run program was going from monthly PLC meetings to weekly. After three years of monthly meetings, the youth leaders just werent growing as much as we thought were capable. The SPLs never seem to gain complete control of the meeting, both in format and controlling the group and they didnt seem to build much more confidence from one meeting to the next. Our monthly meetings always went about two hours long with the last 45 minutes not being very productive. I guess males just arent designed to stay focused that long. We struggled with turnout because the meetings were on weekends during other activities. We wanted our scouts to learn how to run meetings better, to control the group better and to have better control of their week to week responsibilities. You think about it, four weeks is a long time for a SPL to wait for report. He can do it by phone, but it just wasnt working very well. And everyone (youth and adults) felt it just wasnt fun. Im a big believer in that if it is not fun, change it.

So we started asking what we (adults and scouts) hated about the PLC meeting.

To long

To boring

Hard to find a good time on weekends

Gets in the way of weekend activities

Not enough of them to get the required work done

Hard to track business from month to month

So we came up with an idea of a 30 minute PLC meeting each week before the troop meeting. This fits better for most scouts schedules and it wasnt boring any more because it is a full 30 minutes that goes by fast. Also the agenda is easier because now most of the items were discussed on a weekly basis, not monthly. The weekly format gives the SM more time to monitor and work with the scouts, which means more practice of leadership skills. The SPL loved it because now he could keep up with the officers duties on a weekly basis.

After a year of getting use to the format, we found the members of the PLC doubled their rate of developing leadership skills. Our SPLs were so good at running meeting that I would put them up against any meeting run at your Town Council, church or business. The Patrol Leaders were a lot better because they started duplicating the PLC meeting into the Patrol Corners. The SPL could keep up with the Patrols performance a lot easier now and work better with them. Group behavior quadrupled as they became a really close team. The SPL got so good at leading the meeting that most meetings are only 20 minutes long now.

The program matured faster from this one change than anything change I look back on. Honestly I cringe for troops that still have one meeting a month. I just dont see how a troop can be very boy run with one PLC meeting a month.

I remember one of my SPLs who was on his high school student council tell me how they couldnt get anything done. He said that he tried to help the student council president with a suggestions on running a meeting, but the adult advisor told him that they were fine as it was. He told me that was the first time he realized that not all adults have the leadership skills that you get in Boy Scouts. I didnt say anything, but I was thinking he still had more surprises down the road.

Comments?

Oh, have I mentioned how love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Thanks Bob, but here is why I stand by what I said for this troop. First, Leaving the room doesn't mean you don't monitor them. It's as I like to say, standing in the shadows. The main thing here is to get out of the scouts field of view so the act from their nature or training, not from intimidation of what they think the adult wants.

Second, If you are tempted by candy, stay out of the candy store. Right now I feel the adults are in training themselves. Leaving the room forces them to let the scouts perform without the temptation of interupting. It's easy to watch a program perform well without jumping in, but it takes a lot of practice to develop the disapline to let things fall apart and wait until after the activity or meeting to do your adult scouting thing. The adults need to get away from the scouts. As I said, the adults need to grow as much as the scouts.

One example is the PLC meeting that we talked about a few weeks ago. Leave all the adults except that scoutmaster in the hall. And as far as I'm concerned, the SM should be out in the hall as well listening allowing the scouts to do there thing. Resist walking in until the SPL comes for him. Don't worry, you won't have to wait very long. New leaders lack the skills to control the crowed, he will come and get the scoutmaster.

What I did for our SPL was attend his first full meeting to give some confidence and to monitor. After that, I left 10 minutes earlier to give him more time by himself. That is when he will learn the most. By the last two months, the SPL didn't SEE me unless I was called in to give a report or a SM Minute.

Barry

Hi All

Assuming for the moment that the adults are trying to teach the SPL how to do his job, I would say that this sounds to me like the scouts are lacking in expectations and/or accountibility.

Most newer adults go through this because they are learning as well. The adults are giving advice, however they may not be givng the scout the gaols or expectations. Maybe because they don't know, or they havn't yet learned how to give scouts a vision. For example, I want my SPL to follow an agenda for the meeting so he can learn how to complete everything on task and in a budgeted amount of time. Joe, you have 1 hour to get a Minutes of the last meeting from the Scribe. Officer reports for Quartermaster, and Patrol leaders reports. Then older business, new busines and finally a Scoutmaster minute.

In just a few minutes teach the SPL the agenda and what goes in each subject. Then let him go. Use the SPL handbook here while teaching the scout so he can go back to the book and his notes.

The other part is accountibility. It sounds like the adults are letting the scouts screw up, but not letting them suffer the consequenses. Nothing motivates learning more than the pressure of owning up to bad performance.

Joe, how did the program go tonight?

Why do you think it went that way?

What can we do different next time to do it better?

It kind of sounds like the adults are trying, they just haven't figured out what to teach the scout (expectation). They need to get out of the room while the scouts peform so the youth leaders feel the pressure of bad performance and as a result a motivation to ask for guidence.

It may be that adults first need to learn how to ask the questions to get the scouts started talking. If they are waiting for the scouts, there are little tricks to getting them to ask for help. But they can't jsut go out and save the day everytime things look bad or else the scouts just figure it doesn't matter what they do, or don't do, the adults will get the job done.

Remember, a troop is the real world scaled down to a boys size. If you don't do a job you've been hired to do in the real world, who is going to save you day?

One last thing, adults have to learn as much, if not more than the scouts to motivate growth in the troop.

Hope this is kind of what ya'll were looking for.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

Hi Eamonn

Without a threat of what you would want, have you asked his opinion of these leaders? I believe that the hardest part of parenting is how to get your kids to do what you want without telling to do what you want. Instead, of holding your fears and concerns, ask him his opinions of the situation and the adults involved, you might be amazed. If you aren't satisfied, express your concerns. Then just sit back and see how he responds.

The hard part is doing this without sounding judgemental or intimidating. Talk with him as an adult who needs on more opinion and lets see where that goes.

Parenting is so hard. I am amazed that we volunteer for the job.

God bless your whole family.

Barry

Hi All

>>The BSA program is pretty darned close though. However, we can't just close our eyes and blindly follow it without constantly evaluating "Is this working? .

Hi bob

Back at ya. Don't confuse logical progression with adult run. As you pointed out many times, you must have an ASM for success with Venture Patrols.

As I was taught in school "sure you can build an airplane with a hammer. What's important is how will it fly?" Maybe your satisfied with less then we are down here and that's OK.

Barry

From:Eagledad

>>Of course you know it doesnt, its a completely different program.>So If your ASMs went to Venturing training to operate a Venture Patrol it is no wonder things did not work, they are two separate programs.

>>Handbook and you will see that the Venture patrol is to have an assigned ASM to oversee the program, few if any troops ever do that. It is to have its own troop program.

Happy Friday all

>>But Eamonn points out the biggest problem we face. When a unit is in trouble, it always boils down to someone not following the methods.

>>Notice that even with the attempts of philosophical side-stepping by a few posters, no one who is actually involved in unit leadership has been able to site a single instance where using the methods of scouting did not work.

Good Evening All

>>Off the top of my head I don't see where you are not or have not used the program.

I can do that. But lets start off by saying that the BSA program you are talking about is roughly 15 years old. So while I answer your question, I've been wondering how you thought the BSA survived the other 80 years doing a program that you basically say is wrong? My other question is how do you explain two troops with different programs resulting with the same performance?

For my part, you can go to any one of my past post and read how I justify why went toward the program that I scoutmastered. Our goal was to build leaders of integrity and citizens of character. When the program wasn't achieving that goal, we tried something different.

On one last note, I guess where I'm really different here is I don't believe in just one program. I've always given my opinion of why I think certain aspects or styles of program work better than others. But I also know you should use what works best. The forum is a great place to pass along different ideas. I don't think I've ever given a suggestion without an explination of why I thought it worked.

I learned a long time ago that to build a successful program, you have to start with values because when it appears the walls are falling in, only your values will keep you on track. I am convienced our program success wasn't from our approaches to our program. It was our clear site on our values. We migrated to the approaches and methods based from that we wanted our scouts to build habits of character. My hopes are that while I've never explained it in those words, the tone of my post are consistant that values drove the program.

Barry

Hi EagleInKy

Very nice reply.

>>So, for now, I'm hanging on to this responsibility. But I will take this as a challenge to figure out how I can get our junior leaders to do more to teach good leadership down the line.Frankly, it's because I really didn't understand leadership until nearly a decade later. Scouting gave me the tools and the knowledge and a place to apply it in a fun way, it just took me a while to understand it.

As for the SPL teaching the PLs leadership, I respectfully disagree. That task should fall primarily to the Scoutmaster.

Yes, I see your point. But I developed several reasons to why the SPL was the teacher. First, it pulls the scout

away from a bossy dictoral style of leadership towards a coaching style leadership. I also wanted the youth leaders to see themselves as servents of the scouts they led. By handing over your skills to others, you are raising those you teach to a level equal to yourself. Reduces the Big Head syndrome.

I also found that when a leader took on the task to teach, he also took responsibility for the performance of those he was teaching. There are all sort of positive qualities in that. I never forget when the SPL invited me to a meeting where he worked with the Patrol Leaders. The SPL was unhappy with the Patrol leader performance at the last campout and decided to have a work shop. I was invited but not required to come. I have been involved in thousands of hours of JLT at all levels. I saw scouts learn more in that two hour work shop than any other time.

And finally, I think there is a type bonding that goes on when you give a part of yourself to another person. That is why I tried to get all the scouts to see themselves as teachers of their leadership responsibility. Even when I was teaching knots, I would ask the first scout who learn the knot to help me work with the others to learn their knots. For many of these guys, that is the first time in their life they were ask to teach someone else a skill.

I love scouting best when a scout goes home saying "I like myself when I'm with the troop"

Hope this all makes sense.

Barry

>>primary job of SM in boy-led troop is to train SPL and PLs in their roles.

Hi all

Good answers all. I will give my hand of a few things I learned from my experiences.

>>How do you accomplish this on an on-going basis?>What do you do every week to add value?> What do you say and when do you say it?> Do you "manage" or "supervise" or "oversee" them in their jobs?>I am looking for specifics in terms of getting good performance out of troop leadership, beyond a one-time training.

>>How do you handle it if a scout reads the Boy Scout Handbook, that says a Patrol should be recruiting new members, and keeping their patrol at full strength.

Hello All

>>What would their oldest and youngest ages be, and what would the rank spread be?>What do you think would have the biggest positive impact on growing the membership of your troop?