Eagledad

Another Great Winter Day All My question hotdesk is if you asked the scouts what the rewards and benefits of leadership in your troop are, what do you think they will say? I think getting a scouts to seek out leadership is a culture change. Im wanting to say it the shift of going from the mindset of a boy to a man. But I think it is even more then that. Scouting is a safe place. We say that a lot, but what does it mean. Well to me that means scouts are free to act and behave in the way THEY think is appropriate and not feel they will get called down if they dont meet up to expectation. I found that few scouts will make decisions on their own initiative when they think the adults will react negatively. A safe troop is one where the adults view bad performance as good opportunities to grow. In that kind of troop, the scout knows he has free reign to act the way he thinks is right and the worst that will happen is that they will try again differently to get better performance. That is in all activities, but very important in Leadership. I didnt spend much time talking before elections,, but what I told the scouts was leadership is the opportunity for them to learn. "If you think you know how to do the job well, then you are the wrong person for it. Leave that space open for the next guy to learn and grow from his struggles and mistakes. If you are afraid to screw up, then the job is not for you. Learning from mistakes is the best method of learning, so we not only expect you to make mistakes, we want you to makes mistakes. I promise you will learn a lot if you meet those requirements." A lot adults think that boys are lazy and just dont want to work. And some are that way, but I found that most are just afraid or tired of adults jumping down their throat. And I understand. Every year at summer camp our scouts and adults are reminded how quiet our troop is when it comes to adult and scout relations. You can hear so many adults in other troops yelling at their scouts through the week. The first half of the week is telling scouts what to do. The last half is yelling about all the things they did wrong. Maybe that is why I didnt like any yelling in our troop. If you couldnt handle leading in a normal tone voice, then it was likely you needed to step away at the moment and/or needed to learn a new style of leadership. Yelling to me is a red flag that you need more skills guidence and the scouts learn that pretty quickly. One other thing; our scouts knew who their leaders were. We have a PLC meeting every day of our activities for some reason, and they always get some kind of treat like coke, candy, sometimes pizza, or whatever I can come up with at the time. They work hard and they were rewarded for their effort. Hope this helps in some way. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I took a class at the University of Scouting about Venture Patrols. The most interesting idea that came out of the class was for the Venture Patrol to be an ad hoc patrol or 'virtual patrol'.

Happy cold sledding all >>We can pontificate all we want as to the value of training, and castigate those who, for whatever reason, do not place a high enough priority on getting themselves trained.

Ahh thanks, I couldn't figure out what the PT was in the PIAPT. I should have guessed a long time ago that you are one of those, and those, and those. By the way, I have a bumper sticker that says: "My two favorite teams are OSU and any team that plays OU. Barry

Happy wintering all Hi John, I am excited to learn what MBO, MBO, OMM, BKD, PIAPT are. Barry

That's cool. So. you guys have mixed age patrols, who are generally the patrols leaders? I assume by your description that it is the younger guys, younger then you I mean. Barry

Hi J-dawg Why do you want a Venture patrol? What do you think your troop is missing now that a VP would help? I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>In Webelos, because many councils roll all the training into one ball, we have Webelos leaders who face a very different program then they have practiced for the past three years and they are supposed to remember training that for this new den program that they have not seen in three years. So they end up running Webelos like a Cub Den rather than as a transitional program to Boy Scouting. Kids don't want to be cub Scouts for 5 years, they need a taste of what is ahead in Scouting.

>>To think that the BSA program is developed by suits with no unit experience is really just an emotional and ill-informed rant.

Sure. I think we looked at it from the idea that the Patrol Leaders have to initiate their patrol to do everything at camp. We also went to enough not so good camps that we learned how to kind of do our own troop program with in the Scout Camp program. A few examples are we think like that the Patrol Leaders have to get their patrol up and in formation to do a Troop flag ceremony before we hike down to the Camp Flag Ceremony. We ask that scouts only come to Flag as a patrol. That forces the PL leader to get the scouts organized to bring them to the Troop Flag. Typically our troop arrives to the Camp Ceremony late the first couple of days. The embarrassment encourages the Patrol leaders to build better team work and to seek out guidience is they need some from the SPL. We don't allow the adults to follow or lead scouts to their classes. We want the scouts to learn how to seek out help there and and develop independence. Scouts are not allowed to leave camp without telling the patrol leader first. That sounds simple, it actually requires team work and understanding who is the responsible leader at the time because the PL is likely in class somewhere. IT is frustrating at first, but the patrol quickly learns how to create a roster so that there is always someone who is responsible in camp when needed. From the adults perspective, all information goes from the SM to the SPL and on down to the PLs. That prevents parents who don't understand from overwhelming the SPL with suggestions and questions. You can imagine there are a lot. And that is why the SM works pretty hard too. We have a PLC every day so that the SPL pass along new camp information and to remind the PLs of our troop programs like a game, troop campfire and usually a troop swim or shoot. The SPL always volunteers our troop to do a Camp Flag ceremony, clean up detail, and a camp service project. That forces the SPL and PL to assign patrols and practice for their duty if nessasary. Our Troop stays busy, but we make sure there is there is more fun then work. The SPL is pretty simple, but very busy. He manages the boys side of the program and is the between person for the scouts and adults. I keep talking about how we wear out the SPL, but I work hard on delegating and the SPL will wear out a couple ASPLs and Quartermasters as well. It kind of sounds like we keep the the adults are seperated from scouts a lot. We do try to always keep the adult camp as far as possible from the scout to give them their independence. But we also encourage the parents to do some activities with the sons to give them time together, and while I don't like the parents to interrupt the scout side of the program, I do ask them to watch from a distance because it is fun. They can participate with the scout where ever their presence doesn't interupt our mission. Sometimes the camps being far a part has its problems, but they are problems I want to see and change. The SPL goes to all the meetings and manages most of the problems. There are somethings that require the adults like meds and things. I find that even though we give the SPL the responsibility, the SM is warn out by the end of the week. Interestingly we find at camp that the average of SPLs to be about 13 while ours are usually around 15 to 16. Sometimes we have trouble at camps that don't really understand the SPL being encharge. We work things out, but we don't usually go back to those camps. Those are a few things that come to mind. It takes a troop time to get to a maturity where you can have older scout SPLs who run camp. But, I also think that giving our older scout so much responsibility is why we had some many older scouts. Barry

Well I guess we teach them the process. But what is more important is that they learn to do it in all their activities that require setting a goal as the first step. Even during a Scoutmaster conference, I ask the scout to set some kind of gaol for his next rank or MB or what ever is the subject and to right that gaol in his book. The idea is by writing and seeing it everytime he opens the book, he is reminded of that goal. Once complete, I even ask them to write the date completed to reinforce the idea of completion of the process. But that is just one process of leadership development. What about MB cards. Honestly what a scout learns from the MB material wasn't as important to me as the skills of managing the badge. Our scouts had to find the counselor, fill out all the imformation for the card, get the SM to sign the card, then call up the counselor and set up a schedule for meetings. Again to adults that isn't that much, yet most boys had never had to do to initiate that many actions just to start an activity (or process). We found our scouts were proficient between three to five MBs. I also believe it reinforces the boy how to set a goal, and set a plan. These are small things to learn, but big to scouts at first, but they catch on very quickly. All we adults have to do is remind them now and then, but not as much as you would think. To them it is just a process habit. But habits they carry the rest of their lives. Good Reply. Barry

Interesting how the discussion is driving. Some of us predicted the decline and our conclusion had nothing to do with training or demographics. It was based on "leader burnout" we were seeing in the Cub Program. Through the 90's we saw a big problem as the Tiger program was changing. The more involved the Tiger program was getting, the more we saw the problem of leader burnout by the end of the Bear year. Then National made a big change to the Tiger program in 2000 that really force the packs to bring in more Tiger leaders and increase the number of Tiger meetings. The Pack needs almost as many adults to run the Tiger program as they need for the rest of their pack. I know on paper it doesn't look like it, but the program is demanding. Well understanding that the average volunteer of any volunteer program gives between two and three years before burnout, you can see the fallout. Adding to the problem that the Webelos program is very demanding in the outdoors program, we expected the the loss of scouts from Webelos to increase, and I and very sorry that they did. Now I haven't looked at the number the last couple of years, but I would have expected drop out rate to be somewaht stable now. Meaning percentage drop has quit falling and is holding. I keep saying that the Cub Scout program is hard and more then most folks want to endure. We are going to have to make the Cub program easier and less demanding on the adults. It is killing the whole program all the way to Venture. Barry

>>What you seem to miss is that SOMEBODY selected and approved the Scoutmaster, and if they picked someone who did not have the tools..

>>I have often heard some scouters say that they use the dining hall because it is faster and gives the scouts more program time. That usually turns out to be more perception than fact.

Hi Tagguy Robert is right that there isn't a BSA issued district JLT. Many do provide them, some are good and some are just opportunities for adults to be busy. You are at that place where you want to see change in your youth leadership. Robert is also right that the responsibilities of the leadership development is the Scoutmaster's. I'm not trying to Mr. Know-it-all or condescending, it has always been the scoutmaster's job. The problem is their was a trend a few years back to push some of the responsibility from the Scoutmaster to District and councils. Nothing wrong with that except that many scoutmaster misunderstood that to mean it was nolonger their job. Things went downhill from there. Anyway, there are lots of ways to get your unit training going. What I like to teach troops looking to do their own JLT is first go out and get the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook for both the SM and SPL. Then sit down with the SPL and PLC if you want and identify things in those books that your troop isn't doing now. Then prioritize those items and pick a few to work on. I like to suggest doing a half day course on saturday to get use to doing a JLT. Half day is long enough to get a few things done and measure your performance to how well it went, but not so long that the scouts get bored and loose focus.As you get better, you can do full days, overnights and weekends if you like. A few hints are that boys gasp about 10 to 20 percent of what they hear, but 80 percent of what they see and do. So the more you yak, the less the learn. The more they act, the more they will gain. This might seem a pain at first, but you will find that its fun for both the adults and the youth leaders who help you plan and run it. For many troops, JLT is their older scout program. There are several of us who have done a lot of this, so when you're ready to do this, ask some questions and we will be glad to help. It seems lately in fact that some of us are tripping over ourselves to help. Still, this is a pretty good group. Good luck and have fun. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Great Scouting All >> Lowering the scouting age from 18 to 15/14? That really puts the challenge on any youth to pull off an Eagle in only 3-4 years time. Talk about a fast-track program!

HI All War! Don't confuse boy games with adult diplomacy. Fscout is right in that these kinds of games are in a boys instinct or nature. Fscout (Female Scout?) is wrong that the instinct is training to kill other humans. It is simply natures way for developing skills to survive, which means providing food and protection. Nature doesn't not understand war. Nothing beats a game that encourages a boy to think strategically , to understand the goal and to a plan for achieving the goal. And they wear themselves out in the process. Do you realize how hard it is to practice all those same objectives in other normal scouting activities. Our troop plays at least one game of Capture the flag on every campout. Many times after the Saturday Night campfire. It is amazing how creative they get with the game. But simply the game allows boys to play within there natural drive to be a man. Don't resist the force and don't make it out to be more than it is. It is not evil and IT IS NOT TRAINING FOR WAR OR TO KILL. It is strictly natural human skills development. I am far more worried about the video games with the gory graphics and horrific sounds of death and dieing. Lisabob, you are responsible for successful recruiting. If you hang around enough webelos while the visit troops, you will find the majority of them are looking for the most fun troop. Now it is your responsibility to teach the adults what a quality troop program looks like, but don't ignore great opportunities to introduce Webelos to the fun of being a boy in a boy scout Troop. Don't make activities of simple tag any more than it is. Would you feel OK if they were only allowed to tag each with their hands. Whats the difference in the human nature of the boy? Only the technology of winning the game. Gold Wing, I think you will understand the value of how Laser Tag benefits in patrol method if you just go watch one game of it. It pulls out the leadership and following skills in 10 minutes where it usually takes that same patrol three meetings and a campout. I've seen the bonding of patrols accellerate in these types of activities because each member of the team (patrol) understands the goals instantly. Even many adults don't understand the goals of patrol method at a troop meeting. But, a patrol will pull together and use each other skills to acheive the one goal of winning the game of tag because that is their instinct and it is fun. It is really pretty cool watch. Don't take the fun out of being a boy. Agressive games have been part of scouting since the begining. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

You are a Star Trek weinie. Barry

To new for Council yet, but here is a quote from someone on a different forum who called National. ""I asked National RM for a definitive reading on this. Got the following: ... (we have modified the online) Guide to Safe Scouting and removed the word "lasers" from the"" Honestly I'm not to surprised. From what I heard, this is way up there on National's complaint list. Barry

Hi All What you will get from WB that you have not experienced yet from your list is how to set visions and goals and how to build a team that works toward those visions and goals. In my opinion, 50% of inter-unit adult problems will disappear with that training. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I could never totally understand the fascination with games of simulated killing of other people. It must be some sort of inborn instinct. Kinda like kittens that stalk and pounce on imaginary prey. They grow up and use those skills to find food and survive. Human nature is to kill other humans, and we let our young "play kill" to prepare them for life as an adult?

>>SO because laser tag isnt metioned then its ok?, the pointing of the weapon thing doesnt count?

Oh my gosh, I hope it's true because I just looked out the window and there is dancing in the street. I wish I knew how to dance. Barry

I was told National Changed the Online G2SS I think this is the right reference. ""Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball or dye) at any individual is unauthorized. However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Exploring program.""

I JUST READ THAT LASER TAG IS BACK. (Happy face) (Happy face)