Eagledad

A true boy run program is challenging to adults for two reasons; one is each scout requires individual one on one guidance (“Bob, I noticed you choose not to wear your uniform today, is everything all rightâ€Â) compared to (“Everyone is required to wear full uniform or they don’t go campingâ€Â). Second is boy run requires space between the adults and scouts (300 ft) to give the scout true independence of making decisions without intimidation. For a scout to understand the responsibility of making good choices, he HAS to feel the true impact of his decisions on those around him, and he needs to be challenged on those decisions at the time, not six months later. That is a hard responsibility for adults who are 300 ft away. It can be done and adults don’t have to stand in the patrol campsite to see if the patrols members are starving to death because they can’t get together on menus and cooking. We need to be responsive in a timely manner. It’s not real productive to hold a scout accountable six months after the act because it is difficult for him to feel the impact of his decision. Instead he will likely feel resentment for being held accountilbe for something he barely remembers. You don't punish a dog for something it did wrong last week. That’s not to say the scout won’t understand and make some choices that make you proud, but it still makes our job much much harder. Also, the program itself needs to show the scout the the result of his right and wrong choices. Are scouts hungry? Is their camp site trashy and dishes not getting cleaned? Is the patrol late to assembly? How does the troop suffer when the SPL isn’t there? How does the patrol function without the PL? The answer is they shouldn’t perform well if you want them to feel responsible for the expectations. A patrol is a team and members of the team need to be stressed to build into a true functioning team. If one member of the team is slouching, he needs to be held accountable by the other members. The team building model of forming, storming, norming and performing works very well when used properly. I remember when our troop was about 50 scouts and in about a years time they had improved breaking camp from two hours to 35 minutes. That is pretty darn good and I remember the ASM next to me saying, “Wow, we need to find a wrench to throw in that machine â€Â. As adults, you can use the program to stress the scouts and force them to see how their choices affect the team. And then you can guide them one on one if they still don’t see the light. Campsite inspections are a great way to force teams to storm and norm. Agendas are another. But the main point here is you don’t want a scout getting away with making bad decisions for six months before being confronted. Barry

Meanwhile back at the ranch. Is the scout performing to his promises of performance. Your job is to guide scout to make right decisions. You can keep adding policies and rules to force the scout against his will, or you can appeal to him by asking him to be honest with his performance. You are too focused on him performing to your expectations. Instead you could guide him on making correct decisions, one of which may be handing his responsibilities over to someone else until he has the time to live up to the to the expectations the other scouts expect of him. Leadership is only a tool for help you build character. The values of law are serving others before yourself, and helping this scout to make choices that benefit the troop instead himself is your noble task at hand. I handle these kinds of situations by speaking with scout one on one and asking him to reflect on his performance. Sometimes I was the one who grew from the experience, but careful questions can get him to see himself more clear. He may need to set new goals. He may need to understand is options better. But your main objective is for him to want to make good decisions. Does this make sense? What I'm trying to say is focus on the higher goal of character, not leadership performance. Once he understands the life value of making good decisions, good leadership will follow. Good luck, this is challenging for all of us. Barry

Parents dont understand boy led until they see it, feel it, and taste it. We never plan a campout around visiting Webelos. we have our agenda and if they come, they get pulled in to the program. Our visitors have experienced shooting sports, biking, rappelling, canoeing and what ever was planned a year ago at annual planning. The adults don't plan in the visitors, the patrol leaders are responsible for getting the families to the camp and taking care of them including food. Sometimes it's a day visit, most of the time it's a whole weekend. But let me say, the families can't get a better experience of boy run than visiting our troop. And it's rare that those families don't join. Barry

I disagree with not wanting Webelos parents around for a visit, I wanted the parents to be just as impressed with our program as their sons. We had saying in our district, sell the kids, you have a 50 50 shot; sell the parents and you got a sure thing. That being said, I also would have been irritated. But then I remembered the parents are likely just trying to help out the troop by doing their reservations and not getting in the troops way. Tenting isn't everyones cup of tea (just ask my lovely wife), so the cabin idea is their easy solution. They just weren't thinking about logistics and troop schedule. Do the best you can with the situation Twocub and don't let it ruin today. Find a camp without cabins next year. Barry

Its not a lawyer thing, it's law passed on the pharmaceutical companies during the Clinton area. Surely you can remember how the democrats demonized the industry just like do big oil now. Barry

Interesting read here about a poll of doctors conducted by the New York State Medical Society reported by the New York Post. They don't like it. http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

LOL, BP you're assumptions are always intertaining to say the least. You are right, WB21C does little in helping SM's create a fun, challgening, and exciting experience for boys. That is not its purpose. It is desgined as a team builder and guide to understanding BSA visions and goals. Don't make more of it than that. As for the explination of changes, I got that from folks at national. We also had one of the developers of the old course here in our council and he explained the original intent of that course. It wasn't for raming as many new troop leaders through as possible for the purpose of learning how to run a troop. That is not from me, but course developers. And while the BSA may be lacking a basics course, Wood Badge is not the place. The problem with your perspective BP is you think everyone is born with the skills to run a unit. They are not and the new WB does have a place to help the problem. I know this because the issues the old course caused are rarely an issue today. And you see it in the forums as well. No more complaints of units where the scouts are leaving because the adults force the scouts to look like troop 1 of WB. Personally I enjoyed the older course, it was a lot of fun and I made some new friends. But I gained nothing from it in terms of running our troop. Like Stosh, I mostlly learned from my ticket. Barry

The present course that was introduced in 2000 is not like the previous course started in the 60's that was designed for experienced scoutmasters. And think goodness. You all don't realize how much of a problem the old course was because the new course has been running pretty well for 13 years now. But the problem with a course that simulates a perfect troop is that the partticipants that have no other experience to base a troop program on would force their scouts to function exactly like the WB troop. It all started with the inclusion of women as leaders because up until that time, the majority of troop leaders had some scouting experience as a youth. For men and women who didn't have any scouting experience gave them the best picture of running a troop. But wasn't intended to be an end all top shelf troop model program, it was a simply the model used for the real purpose of teaching adults different teaching styles. Yep, WB was not intended to teach adults how to run a troop, it's intention was guiding scoutmasters new teaching styles. But that intention got lost after 1990 because many of the adults used the course as the ideal troop model and that cause a lot of problems with units struggling. If the scouts didn't respond like the participants in WB, they leaders didn't know what to do and generally overreacted. The new course is directed toward team buidling. Thats why Cub leaders are encouraged as well. I was our District person who worked with struggling adult committees and 9 times out of 10, the main problem was the unit didn't have a vision or a team concept. Each adults function on their own doing what they felt was important. I only had to show committees their vision and get them to understand each persons role on the team. It works very well and I think has benefited the program. I do however agree that the BSA needs to provide better access to outdoor skills. Almost 3/4 of adult joining troops today do not have any experience in scouting. And that has it's own problems. Barry

My Bad, I meant Tax refund. That includes everyone who files.

Here is something I just learned from my CPA, if you don't get a tax return from the IRS, you cannot be penalized for not having health insurance. This is a train wreck that is going to happen and I'm really curious how DC will frame it so that folks like Moose will defend it on forums. I'm not being disrespectful, pragmatically the facts are hard to dispute and my kids will suffer from it all. Barry

I have had tremendously good luck with targeting and personally asking individuals to volunteer in just about every scouting position from the District Committee to Tiger parent. I have also personally recruited voluntieers for many planning and organizing committees from Council to Cubs. People are reluctant to give up their time when they don't know the job, so I typically ask them for only a little time by taking on a coleader or assistant role, of any position. Then as they get experience and learn the system better, I ask them to take on a more responsible position. Also, while folks are protective and cautious with their personal time, they are also flattered when you specifically pick them for the job. The key is to not ask for too much all at once. Get them on the team first so they invest some time and interest in the program. Then you push them up the tree. Who knows, you may be recruiting a future Silver Beaver. I have. Barry

Amen! That's what turned me OFF to roundtables. Dry 30 minute slide presentations on poisonous plants, etc, with mile long URLs on the screen. That's what you DON'T do!!! The key words there for me was the "a sharing of ideas". You can't really have slide presentations or power points with a sharing of ideas. And, facilitator needs to keep the discussion on "sharing" and not let it get into a one man show or debate. A good facilitator is worht their weight in Gold. When I organized Council and District Traing courses, I always looked for skilled facilitators and teachers first. Barry

This is a really good suggestion that could add a lot of value to unit programs. The HUGE challenge is finding a skilled facilitator to start and control such discussions. Time is very limited and the line between a sharing of ideas and a bunch of yaking Scoutmasters is thin. I would enjoy some ideas to facilitate eagle90's suggestion. Barry

Do a monthly theme of static displays from each troop: Tents, Chuck Boxes, Trailers, Typical Patrol Gear, Backpacks and any other equipment that scouters find interesting. This encourges each troop to send gear each month as well as see what other troops use. And it doesn't take up any program time, everyone can check out the displays before, during breaks and after the Round Table. Barry

By the way, a lot of CPAs are presently going through training for the up and coming changes. Has anyone talked to their CPA yet about how Obamacare is changing the way things are going? I don't think political affiliation will bias their opinion.

Another bit of humble advice Mat, a very respected SM in our district once told me he had a bad cop good cop relationship with the ASMs for the scouts. Since he had to enforce the rules, he was the bad cop. But the ASMs were good cops because they just did what the SM directed. I was not yet a SM and thought I would be different andI would be everyones favorite SM. But it doesn't work that way because I found that the SM is the gate keeper of the program. If not, chaos would follow because nobody else wants the huge resposibility. But I also learned that SMs aren't bad cops, they are just very respected and held up to a higher standard. Kind of like folks holding preachers up to a higher standard. We just treat them a little different. Boys need role models to guide them and they instinctively look at the dominating leader for that responsibilitiy. All I can say is don't waste it. Stand up for what you think is right, and if that turns out to be wronge, stand up even taller and admit it. Humilty is mans' most respected quality because so few people have the courage to express it. You will never lead your scouts astray if you can follow those basic principles. Barry

Thanks Sentine1947, that is a good read. I expecially appreciate what he said about older scouts: "older scouts aren't as interested in doing new, different, big things as they are in the patrol system. They are endlessly inspired and energized when they have a real resonsibility with the accomplishment and freedom that comes from governing themselves." This is my observation as well and is completely opposite of what most scouters believe. As I said before, age 14 is where I think real growth starts because the scouts get to serve the other scouts and there is a genuine satisfaction that comes from making other peoples lives better. Adults should strive to build a program that gives the older scout that opportunity. A successful Troop program is the result of a successful older scout program. Thanks again Sentine. Barry

We took a single bed size sheet with us incase we only needed to sleep on the sleeping bag. It is very light doesn't take up much room. Our experience is if you pack right, personal gear only takes up about 3rd of the pack at most. I found the scouts had fun creating ways to ligten up their gear. I agree that even in the 80's we used gear and wore clothing that seems obsurd now (cowboy boots). But the greatest additon to modern gear that I will never be without is the hip belt. That one thing made all the difference for me between being miserable and having a great day. Barry

Boy run is very dependent on the maturity growth of the adults. I have to say Matt you have done well there. Posters on this forum respond in two different ways, either from a postion of humilty, or a postion of pride. Yours is a position of humilty and it is very refreshing. I think you are seeing what I mean by guiding the scouts in a general direction instead of following a set course. While it is important for the adults to have a good grasp of the goals, how the scouts reach those goals isn't that important. That is hard for adults to grasp, but even harder to practice when they do grasp it. I really like your idea of the scouts creating their job responsibilties. But that isn't easy for them either. As you said before, there is the gray area of trust between the scouts and adults. So it really has to be a team effort. Here is how I did it, by the way a scouter on a forum gave me this suggestion. I teach all my new PLCs the Aims and methods of scouting. I explain that the 3 Aims are the adults responsibilities, and the 8 Methods are the scouts' responsibilities. The PLCs responsibilities also are to insure that Character, Fitness and Citizenship are practiced in all the campouts and major activities. That way the PLC understands that they basically have free rain over the program provided their program includes the 8 Methods and includes activities that practice the 3 Aims. See what I mean by a general direction without setting an exact course. Now, you can't do this all at once, scouts need to mature and build a trust in the adults. And the adults need to mature faster than the scouts so they don't get in the way. Boy run isn't easy, but it is rewarding. As it comes together, you will find yourself loving this scouting stuff. Barry

My bad Stosh, but I wasn't implying that the Eight Methods related to your 95% directive comment. I just wonder how any adult can come up with hard numbers for any aspect of the program when it comes to scout growth. Each scout has different experiences and different maturities which requires different approaches for developiing growth. I question hard numbers to describe a boy run program because hard numbers tend to limit program and discourage an independent program where scouts are free to choose. I'm sure we are coming from two opposite ends of how to work with youth even though we have the same goals. All adults who work with youth do it under their own set of principes. One principle for me is to challenge each scout where he is at in his maturity and experience. The value of that principle is that we never stop challenging a scout to grow. Sounds simple but I find most troops stop growth after a scout gets to first class. As a result, they get boree and generally look for something different after age 14. I personally think 14 is where the best growth starts. And since I believe all boys are different in maturity and experience, I have to challenge each scout differently. A scout who has good leadership skills but is weak in camping skills will get more guidence in the Camping Method than Leadership. I'm not concerned about about a balance of hard numbers, I rather look at it as applying the right tool at the right time. When I see 95% directives, my first thought is can an 11 year old SPL do the task of 17 year old SPL. Well the answer is obvious, of course he can't. What does he lack? Where does he accell? This is why I think a boy run program is much more challenging for adults than adult run programs. Adult run measures all scout equally against the same expectations. They are generally a well uniformed troop because they expectation is the same for all scouts, no matter what they would really choose if given the choice. I have never seen a perfectly dressed boy run troop because not all boys agree to choose correctly. Adutls in boy run program deal with each scout's individual choice of right and wrong. And generally, adults in the boy run troops rarely dictate the right answer, but instead guide the scout in a general direction for him to experience a decision. Not many adults understand that when a scout voluntarily chooses to make right choices, he will stick with them. So I struggle with hard numbers you see because that just isn't my style of working with scouts. I believe grwoth comes when a scout chooses to grow and he won't voluntarily make that choice without a real life experience and some footing of ethics. I beleive that a boy run program is the best way to get a boy to that place. But how and where the adult fits in that model is very subjective because success depends on the maturity of the adults. A Boy Run Troop of 12 year old scouts looks completely different from a boy run troop of boys of all ages. The best adults are generally students of success for growth and voluntarily changing their leadership style to encrease that growth. The harder question for me is how do adults measure growth with a boy run program compared to adult run. Barry

I had the same kind of experience with camp inspections at one camp in Arkansas. After the camp commissioners finished inspecting all the camp sites, they approached me to have a friendly chat about some basic proceedures for tidier camp site. I politely change the subject to how we were working with our new SPL and that we all understand the proceedures. I pointed out that he is a good kid but the new responsibility was a bit overwhelming and he was trying very hard. I then suggested he approach my SPL and praise him for what went well in the inspection and then provide some suggested techniques for better habits and time managment where he struggled. The head commissioner knew exactly what I was asking and did an excellent job encouraging our SPL. The commissioner was so impressed by our approach that he visited everyday to just chat and see how things were going. There are basic laws to working with youth, one is not all boys are easily motivated. But if your expectation is consistent, your scouts will learn that only those who want the challenges that go with the honor should accept the position. The cream will rise to the top. The difference between Kudu and I is he will select the natural leader and put him in place. I on the other hand guide nature to take its course and encourage the system push the natural leader to the top. I would say that 8 times out of 10, we end up with the same leaders. But in my approach, the boys make the choice, not me. Barry

Something that is missing from the discussion is the scout's desires. I had many scouts, who given the choice, would just soon skip it. The scout who had the COH at his house was absolutley adamante that he didn't want a big deal in front of the troop. The presentation at the house was a compromise for his parents. I do like the Aircraft Carrier idea. I wonder if we have one in Oklahoma. Barry

You know Base, I'm starting to respect your leadership style. Did the camp director speak with your SPL to ask why the troop is late? Camps will struggle with logistics of program and meals when Troops don't follow their schedule. For some people, responsibility is a reaction of accountibility. Barry

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not expecting an answer. But when I hear someone giving hard numbers to define their boy run program, I always wonder what hard numbers they have for percentages and priorities of using the Eigth Methods (Ideals, Outdoors, Patros, Advancement, Adult Assisation, Personal Growth, Leadership, and Uniform) in their boy run program. Barry

I even attended a ceremony done in the Scout's house with his family. They had BBQ after. It is all up to you, but you can Google up some ideas to start. We've have many outdoor ceremonies and they are nice, but keep a back up in mind for rain. It's all fun.