Eagledad

32 minutes ago, MattR said:

This is the part that sticks with me. Scouting helps kids that need it. Why is that?

There is something there. Individuality? fairness maybe, I don't know, but we had several special needs scouts, who struggled outside of scouts, excel in the troop.

Barry

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

IMHO ... Webelos den leader is the absolute best role in cub scouts.  CM is fun.  CC is interesting.  BUT, Webelos den leader gets to take these cubs (and usually their dads) to special events, camping, visiting troops, etc.  ... Absolutely the best role in cubs.  ... IMHO, hardly a give up CM.  More like run from CM to WDL.  ... AND, WDL weirdly feels like less work than many of the other roles.  I'm not sure why, but it was.  

I look at it as providence. I was an ASM while I was the CM, so I gained the experience to know what the Webelos needed for a FUN program. While we couldn't find another Webelos leader, three volunteered to assist. And, the other parents were great. So, I did the planning and let the parents lead the activities. I think we did it right because one scout who went to a different troop told me at his Eagle ceremony that his Webelos experience was the most fun he had in scouts.

Barry

58 minutes ago, elitts said:

It's also where adults that were previously happy to run nice clean indoor programs start to cringe at the idea of actually camping and hiking.

So true. I have a lot of stories here. I'm sure elitts does as well. One story is that I gave up the CM position to be the Webelos leader of 16 scouts. No, we aren't supposed to do that. 

Barry

36 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I think splitting cubs might be a good idea.  k,1,2 in one.  3,4,5 in another.  

The maturity between 1 and 2 is huge. The 2nd graders are about the same maturity of 3 and 4. 

My thinking is pre-K, K and first grade. 

And, I being told by my adult kids that kindergarten is the new first grade. So, it could get worse.

While I think the Webelos program is pretty well designed, I believe the 2nd year Webelos need to get more involve with Troops. Not a lot, but enough to make the program more fun. Webelos is where the packs suffer the most with adult burnout. So, if the troops could assist the leaders with program, that would be a huge influence toward improving the crossover numbers.

Barry

Curious, Walmart has insurance that covers for customers who hurt themselves falling in their parking lot. Does Walmart have a reputation of customers falling in their parking lot? I imagine just as much reputation as BSA's history of child sex abuse. 

Barry

I don't concern myself much with competition. As much as I harp of how the Cub program hurts the Troop program, it brings in 97% of the membership. If a Scouting group wants to  seriously compete with the BSA, they need to heavily market an attractive Cub level program. That would hurt, if not kill, the BSA.

Barry

2 hours ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Before my tenure as SM... the troop operated way differently and the scouts were used to the adults doing everything and making all the decisions. It took a few years to get them operating like a troop should, but that effort paid a lot of dividends for us. We're certainly not perfect by any means... but I am incredibly proud when I see my scouts leading the way in their schools and having great impacts on our community. It took a lot of explaining to the other leaders that if we loosened up our grip... the scouts would take charge and surprise us. We still have hiccups every now and then, which is to be expected, but that just teaches the scouts how to adapt and overcome (roll with the punches life throws your way). 

We had two Eagle Project proposals at last night's committee meetings and the two 14-y/o scouts were commanding with their presentations and took every curveball the committee tossed their way. When I see our scouts performing like this... it does make me think we are giving them a solid program. 

Well said. I agree with the how the program can impact the community. One year I learned that 6 of the 7 students voted as leaders by the high school student body were scouts in our troop. The 7th was a girl. None of those scouts told me, I learned it later from a teacher. Surely that can't be coincidence in a school of 2800 students. 

Barry

24 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Sorry, the older scouts being the 16 & 17 y/o scouts. In our troop, the scouts know it is their troop. They run it using the patrol method. I have two 17 y/o Eagle Scouts that are my troop guides. Their entire function is to help the SPL make the right leadership decisions. Each patrol also has an ASM assigned to them so there is adult guidance. But, all my ASMs know that failure is ok. It is ok for the scouts to make mistakes so they can learn from their mistakes. As for me, I mentor the Eagle Patrol since they are JASMs. I want them to mimic my servant leadership style until they can come up with their own way.... I think it helps set them on the right path towards a lifelong journey of "cheerful service"/ 

Sounds like a great troop. Ours functioned much the same way.

I instructed the scouters in my adult training classes that if they would focus on a quality older scout program, they will inherit a quality younger scout program. Troops tend to do the reverse leaving the older scout program as more of just a hang out for the scouts and fill in when they are needed. Older scouts need to set the tone of the program just as you said so the younger scouts learn good habits simply by seeing them in action.

Barry

9 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

I'd have to disagree. If the younger scouts, by way of the patrol method, are being mentored and guided by the older scouts... I have seen 13-14 years with the emotional and leadership maturity of well-seasoned scouts. Kids parrot what they see. If they see older scouts that are rock-solid youth leaders... they will mimic those traits.  

Of course, but we are talking about taking the older mentor scouts out of the loop. prepubescent boys instinctively tend to herd for protection. Leadership forces them on the open away safety, so heavy mentoring gets them through it. But, 13 year olds are not older scouts and adults aren't good models to mimic. 

Barry

26 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Agreed and your points here may end up being the death of Scouts BSA as it stands.  18 years old isn't a light switch.  To be more safe, we may need to follow the UK model, Scouts 10.5 - 14 ... Explorers 14 - 18 and Network 18 - 25.  I think there is a bigger risk for 17 year olds hanging out with 13 year olds than 18 year olds with a 17 year old.  I wonder if in 5 - 10 years if BSA is forced to change based on insurance policies & litigation potential.

This is probably where scouting will go, for insurance purposes, but it is the death of scouting as a program where youth develop character through the process of making independent decisions.

My experience is under 14 scouts aren't instinctively mature for leadership, leaving the adults to intercede when the growth stalls. Scouting is the one true program that develops maturity to confront the realities of adulthood. Now what?

Barry

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

 We are here because BSA national leaders took too long to act to protect kids.  If BSA survives, which I think it will and should, we need to make sure that never happens again. 

That’s all quite a reach without hard facts. That being said, what do you propose to make sure it doesn’t happen again?

Barry

19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Would this then work?

“If your child joins this pack/troop her or she may be sexually abused.”?

”BSA will try not to have people sexually abuse your child, but we cannot guaranteed it won’t happen”?

Or are you suggesting what is known as an “internet danger” disclaimer or warning? That scouting is so Per se or inherently dangerous that anyone who agrees must acknowledge the inherent danger?

I don’t know, the scandal of a public school coach caught. abusing girls has been in our news all week. There is probably at least one sex abuse scandal in a public school every week somewhere in the US. That is a lot of scandals. So, let’s replace BSA in your example with “your child’s school” in all public schools and imagine how parents should respond. Should National Leaders shut down all local public schools? Inherent danger?

I’m trying to imagine 85,000 school teacher sex abusers. Even with all the press, that still seems like a lot.

Barry

I think the moderators have done as good as they can in holding the posters to a scout like tone. And I’ve not always been so kind with my opinions of the mods.

The discussion is being dominated by emotionally fueled posters who believe they are the smartest contributors in the thread. Add newer members who expect extra leeway with the victim card, and the discussion gets very one-sided. Fine as long it stays on the facts of chapter 11, but most folks here have a vested interest in the future of the program, so any opinions about the future of the program can draw expected responses.

It’s a complement to the mods that victims feel safe in this forum. But, being scout-like means there has to be fairness, balance, and respect for all the members, including the passionate members who have a stake in the future of the program. After all this is a scouting form.

Barry

It will be interesting to see how volunteers are guided to deal with tenting two scouts of the same identified gender, but opposite biological gender. I read where a UK Girl Scout Professional was fired for not allowing opposite biological genders' in the showers at the same time. We live in complex times. 

Barry

41 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@SiouxRanger, I agree that bygone bathhouses would not stand a chance against video devices of today. I just don’t know if modern shower houses have provided any long term advantage against determined predators. Good scouters staying educated may be all we can count on.

Reminds me of one Webelos summer camp in 1993 where a female Webelos leader was asked to leave camp because she walked in the shower area to tell (shouted) her scouts that they were staying in the shower area too long. The whole camp could hear those scouts laughing and joking around. The scouts where in their swimsuits and she was just being a mom walking in the shower area without thinking to tell them to quit messing around and holding up the showers for the rest of the camp. That was when we knew Youth Protection was getting really serious.

Barry

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Strange. I haven't seen a whole lot of natural instinct for organization among girls. I challenge young teens to build crews, the first step being getting them and five buddies to show up at my door and tell me they want to get started. That first step is very, very, hard for them.

Totally agree. My Paintball analogy reflects the same thought. My guess is that organizing strangers into a functional group is a different type of organization skill The reason the Girl Scouts are able to do it so well is because they learned over the years in their Troop.

I did an exercise like this at each of our Council JLT training. After all the participants arrived to course, we gave them 15 minutes to organize into patrols of 7 with each scout assigned to a POR position. The only restriction was no two scouts from the same troop could be in a patrol.

Barry

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

Having sons, could you enlighten me about "girls' natural organization instincts?" Thanks.

Sure, with two older sons and a little girl trailing, I learned there and at other youth organizations that girls tend to fixate on being organized while boys tend to be more adventure oriented. And, in general, girls tend to think in a small picture of details while the boys think in the big picture. What I found is that the young girls will take over a group of boys when it comes to planning and organizing because they like dealing with details. Ever watch very young girls play house? Boys willingly give that up because they hate the tedious small stuff in organizing. 

What is more frustrating about those trends is that adults interpret the girls organization skills as good leadership skills, when that isn't the case. Girls struggle a lot with the chaos of group dynamics. Boys do to, but only when they don't agree on the goals. And I get so tired of adults bragging about the girls organizational skills to motivate boys to step up. It only frustrates boys relationship and trust with the adults.

Growth comes much easier for both groups when they are dealing with the same general struggles of the group personalities because the growth gains from the decisions are basically the same. Or can be coached or mentored basically the same. Many believe boys are slower to mature, but the reality is that the instincts of the two genders appose each other so much that the nature tendency for adventure contrasted against organization makes the boys appear less mature. Throw a few boys together in a paint ball match and see how quickly they will make a plan. It's amazing really. Girls struggle just coming together as a group.

This is not to say some boys are better at organization and some girls are adventure minded. But, in the big picture. the two genders don't mix well until puberty. AND that has it's own struggles.

Barry

My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize. But, I could see all girl patrols working within the true patrol method since the personal challenges wouldn't be gender specific. The problems of natural instincts fade as each gender reaches puberty, so I don't think older scout leadership is a big problem at the older ages. It's not perfect, but we live in a culture that cares less about maximin potential growth of the youth.

Barry

On 8/13/2021 at 4:42 PM, TAHAWK said:

 

I have been copying the Unit leader to prevent "one-on-one" communication.  A parent is now required?

I may be corrected, but I think the answer is "no", parents aren't required on all communications. Just a 3rd person. Of course the unit may have additional policies. 

Barry

59 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Since most scouters do not attain the rank of Eagle Scout (Eagle Scouts are older scouts and abuse victims tend to younger) and the fact that most victims withdraw from scouting old Eagle Scouts (exception @ThenNow) would tend not to be abuse victims.  But how were they approached...it couldn't have been thru the perversion files since victims names were redacted.  Do you know for a fact if they were abused or not?  If they were not abused are you saying someone (who) was trying to have them file false claims?

The older Eagles are friends and relatives in their mid 60's. The friends do not know the relatives. My Eagle son was contacted as well. None of these Eagles were victims.

Barry

12 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Sadly, there are still people here trying to downplay the child sexual abuse. You are right: if there wasn't a problem, we wouldn't be here. But some people are still claiming BSA had (and has) no child sexual abuse problem.

That isn't true. Some folks just want to see the facts..

Barry

23 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Incidents are always ugly.  Always.  People have a right to feel angry.  

The issue is as you said.  Numbers.  Standards.  Comparisons.  There are some numbers and I'm not sure BSA fairs any different than others.  Better in some ways.  Worse in others.  

Maligning BSA based on incidents is wrong.  Label the incident and the individuals, but many of us are uncomfortable labeling the larger organization due to this.

Good post.

I have no trouble with the anger. I struggle with how the vague numbers are used as fact. One way or the other. When data can't be defended, it becomes a weapon for both sides of debate. Doing this was a big no no in debate class back in high school because it gets nowhere. The 82,000 has gone nowhere for a long time. Better to leave this thread as a reporting the facts of the case.

Barry

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Of course it makes a difference. I challenge you to say that my presence here, and the presence and voices of those victims who followed me in speaking up, changed no minds, made no difference and was of no value to the discussion. 

Hmm, not enough data.

Barry