Eagledad

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

If Boy Scouts of America cannot operate the patrol method in a way that does not result in this level of child sexual abuse, then it has three choices:

1. Continue to operate the patrol method and accept as a given the current level of child sexual abuse and subsequent lawsuits.
2. Modify the patrol method to ensure scout safety. That means no more scout-only activities (as already has occurred with needing two-deep leadership). That means tearing Scouts BSA in half (11-14/15-18).
3. End the patrol method.

I'm happy to hear if you have a 4th option.

 

Ah, teenage cub scouts. That's healthy for the culture. Adults will never grow up. 

Barry

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

If a byproduct of the patrol method is child sexual abuse, then the patrol method has to go. Period.

LOL, really! Please expand. 

Barry

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Another nail in the Patrol Method coffin. Patrol Method works best with mature role models. Prepubescent scouts are not mature enough for a mature program. 

Barry 

5 minutes ago, malraux said:

Taking his recommendations of limiting age ranges in contact with each other also probably means splitting the scouts BSA program into 11-14 youth and 15-18 aged youth, similar to the scouts and venture scouts groupings in other countries.

Another nail in the Patrol Method coffin. Patrol Method works best with mature role models. Prepubescent scout are not mature enough for a mature program. 

Barry 

19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I see. So, it is OK when BSA bends to the culture to allow for segregation and discrimination based on race. But otherwise it is

or would you prefer "political correctness"?

My posts aren't being posted, so who knows what we will see.

Bending to culture will always be social activism to somebody.

The Oath and Law are moral principles to guide right decisions. Using Oath and Law as a weapon is not a right decision.

Barry

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Whenever I hear people chime in with the BSA has never been political and always supported the Oath and Law, I remind them BSA allowed for segregated units, districts, and even Councils until 1974 when the NAACP sued them into shame and the last Council was finally ordered desegregated.

 

Really! The BSA policies was part of the culture then as much as gays and girls are part of the culture now. 

Using the Oath and Law in a broad brush is a two edge sword. One has to respect the Oath and Law in their personal character to have any integrity for using them to attack whole organizations out of context.

Barry

17 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Which was pretty much exactly what happened with the Catholic Church until the dam broke with the revelations of the scandal in Boston in the 1990s. After that, it all came out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_cases_in_the_United_States

Moreover, as I've said, it isn't like people are advertising this.

Your kidding right! The Catholic issue was on the news almost every day. TV shows and light night comedians hammered on it. Folks may not of knew of an incident personally, but they certainly knew about the issue. I don't see it being the same.

Barry

12 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

What do you want em to wear?

How much of the article would change if they didn't wear the uniform? 

1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

Question to current scout leaders. What do you tell current scouts and or their if asked about the current bankruptcy and the child sexual abuse in the past?

I've mentioned before on this forum that the few folks I've talked to personally about this subject is they don't believe the abuse is substantial. It's not hardly even in the media. We are surrounded by media reports almost weekly of sexual abuse in our schools, government, family and so forth. But, most folks can't think of a single incidence from in scouting. In fact, most parents will say when it comes to sexual abuse, Scouting is a safe place.

There are a few folks here who are passionately involved, but you can see even in this forum that there isn't much of an audience who are appalled at the BSA in general. And a couple of the louder folks here were BSA haters even before the bankruptcy started ramping up. 

So, I believe the pragmatic answer to the bankruptcy is we have to wait it out. As for the sexual abuse, we have to do a better job protecting scouts.

Barry

Hmm, I'm trying to understand why the girls are wearing BSA uniforms. Something isn't right.

Barry 

20 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

No amount of adult supervision will keep this from happening.  When there is will there is a way.

Oh, I certainly agree. A mentor who I give the most credit for my style of Scoutmastering quit scouting when he realized that he was more of a babysitter of their new Venturing unit than advisor. He got no sleep even with his tent was set up between the Venturing tents.

Barry

4 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Taking this a step further...if they are having sexual relations and it occurs on a BSA outing is the BSA then on the hook for sexual abuse?  Adult having sex with a minor?

There are people running around who were the result of a BSA campout. I've wondered if that was the reason behind restricting scouts from camping without adults.

Barry.

14 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

You would be in a position to complain.

And here. If it means that much to you, have an upvote. On me.

I admit I have little tolerance for hypocrisy.

Barry. 

8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

In light of your copious and indiscriminate use of the down vote button, I hardly think you are in a position to complain.

Wait a minute. That is hypocritical considering you gave me numerous copious and indiscriminate downvotes. You didn't see me complain.

Barry

On 9/28/2021 at 7:38 PM, MattR said:

Taking over? Sounds like it already took over for you. Ask your wife.

I know of many people that got in too deep, never said no, got burned out and then got angry. They left scouts, never to help out again and are bitter as well.

To be honest, I've seen this often enough that I've come to the conclusion that there's something wrong with the program. It takes too many adults to make it work.

And if some here have their way, more will be required for YP.

Barry

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

OK, I am a new assistant scoutmaster, and we have two other new assistant scoutmasters. In addtion, the kids in our troop trend younger.

We do not have a strong command of scout skills.

Lots of good suggestions here about teaching skills. My advice is use as much everyday useful activities as possible so the scouts are learning how to apply their newly learned skills in their activities. Each knot is designed for a specfic purpose. Learn the purpose and use it for camping. Using a small tarp as a tent can require at least 3 knots. Have the scouts race to set up that tarp using only the materials of tarp, rope and a couple of sticks. Look at all your skills that way.

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

However, the bright side is that the kids are having fun at the meetings. At our last one, scouts made an activity to play dodgeball and when you're out, you have to answer a question about hiking / outdoor safety to get back in. 

 

Well done. Yes, dodge ball in not an authorized scouting activity, but the approach and planning by the scouts and the hanging in the shadows by the adults letting the scouts do was great practice. Keep practicing.

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

This was a good idea and they had lots of fun but they did not have a ton of questions prepared. But it was a good effort.

Questions? Not every action should be a growth review. Let the scouts have fun and learn from the fun. You will know when to push it for growth and when to let the scouts go home remembering how much fun they had. It's very OK for adults to be passive with scout growth so long as they are active in giving the scouts a place and process for the growth. Finding ways to learn scout skills is a place and process.

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

But as a troop, the kids are going to need more skills so they can safely pursue more adventures. We don't want them to get bored with the basics.

 

A new SM called me to ask how to keep his campouts from getting boring. His campouts for the first six months of his new troop were scout skills for advancement all day long. My first suggestion was give them at least 2 hours of free time. His response was the scouts would get into to much trouble without controlled structured activities.

Scouts cannot develop the skills of self control and self discipline until the are given the freedom to practice. The troop needs to be a place where scouts feel safe making the wrong decisions because wrong decisions are the teachers.

Our troop never does advancement at troop meetings or campouts unless those skills are required for the theme. We save two hours on Sunday after breakfast and Scouts own service for the scouts wanting to learn skills. Skillls are for making scout activities more fun, not for advancement. One complements the other, but your scouts will get bored if you go in the wrong order.

Good luck. Remember, adults have to learn more faster to keep up in a mature scout run program. If the adults aren't learning and changing, they are likely taking to much control from the scouts.

Barry

25 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I would like to know, too. This a good point and has to factored into the equation, to be fair. I’ve appreciated the ‘correction’ about the IVF not being singularly based on sexual abuse or impropriety. Though it may seem otherwise, I don’t want to be blathering without foundation or credibility. These data points helped me balance my perspective, though in no way takes the wind out of my sails. 

I was not expecting this answer.

I assumed wrongly that the abuses (reports?) were categorized. I know of a hand full of sexual abuses that occurred in the council while I was leader, and none them were physically sexual in nature. There could have been some, but, the few I knew of not only were not physical, the complaint was at scouts. Not adults. Just seems the numbers shouldn't be used in these discussions. Could the number just 10 percent of the published discussed numbers the circumstances are whittled down to specifics? Who knows. We know scouts were physically abused, but seems we have no idea how many. 

Barry

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yep. The idea that COs "didn't know" isn't true. More accurate it "We COs didn't care. We just signed whatever adult applications were put in front of us." is more accurate. And now they are reaping the whirlwind.

CO's rarely know all the adults except for the leaders who suggest the approval. To say CO's dig in for a fight requires context because CO's don't like to dig in an fight in normal situations. There has to be more to the story.

I'm questioning how a CO would turn down an application that isn't checked for abusers. Aren't all applications checked now?

Barry

4 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

No we don't plan programs like that. In fact, as adults, we do not plan any programs at all, other than those that Lodge Officers ask us to plan. That is usually relegated to food, and adult training tracks that run concurrently with what the youth planed. And that is about it. The Lodge Officers, Chairs and LEC plan the events. 

I understand how it works. And, I also know how much leverage adults can have in the process. I blame the adults in our lodge. In our case, it wasn't adults having fun running the program their way, it was  adults ignorant of how to let the scout lead the program. They were terrible. I was even recruited to fix the problem, but my one hour a week was all used up fixing other problems.

Barry

18 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If 637 kids drowned since 2010 in BSA I would think you would say we need to relook at our water safety program ....  637 is far too many CSA claimants.  I agree we have improved.  I don't agree we are doing everything we can.

I'm curious, Do we know the 637 is sexual? Do we know if they are physical? I ask because the abuse situation I know of that was physical was not sexual. And the sexual abuse situation was not physical. The sexual report came from an adult who was standing outside of a scout tent listening the scouts having a sexual discussion about girls.. 

Barry

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yep. Says the person right before their scouts are killed by a lightning strike or a fallen tree branch.

Just as reminder: currently BSA policy is that direct contact leaders who are "positioned trained" must take Hazardous Weather training every two years and at least one person per outing/event has Hazardous Weather Training.

https://training.scouting.org/courses/SCO_800

 

I'm good with it. I have 30 years of scouting experience in one of the most violent storm states in the union. We've camped in zero degree weather as well as 110 degree weather. We have camped in more thunderstorm than I can count. Take the training and know what to do and you are good to go. 

Barry

There is a saying, "If you are uncomfortable with the weather, you aren't dressed right.".

Barry

Covid alone throws the data out-the-window. The other stuff, at best, would just be polling opinions.

The smart action would be for the BSA to stay the BSA for a while and for them to work together with the GSUSA on a national marketing campaign to promote scouting. More difficult for the BSA because it is a co-gender program, but it could still be done if the two groups worked together.

Barry

On 9/11/2021 at 3:26 PM, David CO said:

I totally disagree with all of this record-making stuff.  The boys in the troop should feel perfectly free to cancel their activity, if the situation calls for it, without feeling like they are letting people down by spoiling a perfect record.  

 

Record making stuff? Probably never enters their minds. And if it does, that is also choice.

My son had some friends in another troop who were famous for never wearing long pants. They always wore scout shorts, even in the coldest weather. I'm sure they some kind of record.

I don't think this is that hard of an accomplishment. Our troop had a least one outing a month the whole time I was there. It wasn't about records, it was about adventure and activities.  Patrol method needs a place to practice. Provide the place and the scouts will grow from practice. Very simple and it works. As the program matures and grows, so will the activities. There are some years we have at least 8 outside the program adventure activities planned and run by the scouts. We had some months with three activities. We were busy. Scouts weren't required or expected to attend all activities, so some of them were small. Some of those are a simple weekend experience and some are two weeks. The Scuba experience required several months of training to get certified.  There was no sight on getting a record, just having fun. Some troops are more active than others. Good for them.

Barry

32 minutes ago, MattR said:

This is the part that sticks with me. Scouting helps kids that need it. Why is that?

There is something there. Individuality? fairness maybe, I don't know, but we had several special needs scouts, who struggled outside of scouts, excel in the troop.

Barry