Eagle92

Speaking from experience in my past life as a professional, SCOUTNET has so many bugs that 100% DEET wouldn't get rid of them. Heck Supply division told national not to use the company that created SCOUTNET, and actually uses another company for their software. That's why supply has they act together a little better.

One of my fellow DEs was a computer tech and when the SCOUTNET class came up at PDL-1 he stated that problems would occur since the company hired has a poor history, and most companies wind up abandoning the original system, and getting a new one from a competitor. It also hurt BSA that the guy in charge of implementing SCOUTNET had NO background in tech, but was a SE promoted upward.

I know that when it first came out, it took my council THREE MONTHS just to get mailing labels for the newspaper. Don't ask me why it took that long, but the computer doing it was online for 3 months solid. no joke.

In referencfe to the original post. I would be HELPFUL, FREINDLY, and CHEERFUL by sending in ALL your training dates so that they could then update your records. I would then ask not only for confirmation, but a copy of the council generated records so that you have a copy.

As mentioned this is not just your council, but everywhere. After being a DE, I moved to four different councils, and none of my records followed me, despite the fact that SCOUTNET is supposed to allow that to happen. I finally got everything cleared up once I came back to my old district, and pros that are still here backed up the fact that I did go through the training I said I did.

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Acco,

Last I heard, ANY advancement, fromCS ranks and Webelos activity badges, to Scout rank and MB, to Sea scout and Venturing awards, that is placed on an advancement report is considered restricted, and documentation needed to accompany the order, ie advancement report, card, etc.

I can tell you this, you will need an advancement report, even to buy replacements. that's national policy in a scout shop. Also the scout shop will not sell an advancement award to a scout without some type of proof, i.e. a copy of the unit's advancement report, record from the council, his certificate, etc.

Couple of things to clarify before my discussion this week.

1) BW did not say he was in a test program. NOR DID I. I said I was given the opportunity to. From what I heard about the then trial program at Gilwell, I said "that ain't real WB" and told my warden I'ld rather go to the WSJ and take the real WB course when I went back home.

2) I have not gone through WB yet, either the original course or the WB21C. Unfortunately due to school and work schedules, I was unable to take any course. Doubtful I will be able to take for until about 4-5 yrs down the road due, again due to work. UNLESS they still offer CEUs, then then I may not only be able to take the course, but get work to pay for it - It's long shot, but I'll try it.

Now I had the opportunity to talk to a few WB staff folk this weekend at an Ordeal and get their opinions. Basically they see no problem with it. While it shocked me, their reasoning is that both course use the the same basic material, so they see no problem with it. I mentioned what about the staff who don't qualify for beads, and they said it may be an incentive for them to go through WB.

The green socks havd BSA at the top. But the grey Thorlos have the BSA on the foot.

Ok is it me or has anyone noticed the BSA logo on the Green and Thorlo uniform socks? 1) why use an iron logo (at least that's what it looks like to me)or stamped logo that stretches to unreadable? Also is it me or the BSA location on the Thorlo's is a really bad location: on the foot and not noticable at all?

Just an update.

Came back from the Ordeal and got the word that the brother is definitely invited. We're gonna try and sneak him in Saturday morning after the Vigil Call Out so that the candidate doesn't get any advance notice.

Ok I am going to extapolate this one. If certain staff members are entitled to get the three and four Woodbadge beads, why not all staff? And while we are at it, if WB and NYLT are nearly identical, why don't we let the youth wear the beads? After all they are completing nearly identical training and their leaders are getting extra beads? Forget my Smokey Bear that I was awarded way back when, I want my beads! LOL

Seriously though, it's two separate programs, there needs to be two separate recognitions.

Also has Gilwell had any say in this? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Gilwell Park is the actual entity that awards the WB beads via the individual national organizations. That's why I knew about WB changing back in 1995, when I was asked to be a guinea pig for the new program they were testing out at Gilwell when I was on that side of the pond. Tough choice: World ScoutJamboree or WB. I chose WSJ

Emb

Your right National still makes them. I forgot that. My old ship, whose CO was the council, used Ship's Stores instead of supply because they could get them as an all in one patch, and faster than ordering them from national.

Also the scout shops that I'm familiar don't carry them.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Stosh,

Unfortunately it is not always that easy. For whatever reason different Dist. Adv. Chairs interpret projects differently. I had one Scout told he couldn't count time doing research for his project towards it. This young man built collapsible obstacles for search and rescue (SAR) dogs for his project. he talked to people, looked up various designs that were easy to transport, and went out and visited one of the training facilities to take photos and get ideas. he built over 10 obstacles that could be broken down and transported in a trailer for the SAR team. They loved him! BUT the Adv, chair said he couldn't count the time.

Long story short, that young man did finally get it approved after some petitioning, and the SAR team did use those obstacles for training. A few years later, when he was a member of the team, they camp top a council camporee with those obstacles to demonstrate what the dogs do. On the way home form camporee, they got a lost camper call and turned around to go to work. They found the camper.

Ok I haven't gone through Woodbadge yet, But I've been through the old Brownsea 22 program, and staffed JLT. While those two programs were similar in nature, they were geared to two different groups and should share same recognition.

In my original council all Brownsea 22 and JLT staff over 21 had to go through WB, either earning their beads or workingon their ticket. Those staff under 21 had to either complete the course or go throuhj NJLC in Philmont. The staff recognition for both those courses was the Smokey Bear hat. Most WB folks had the official one, those with working their ticket were issued a surplus one, and under 21 staff were also issued one. THAT was our recognition of being on staff. Also when you completed the course, you were issued a campaign hat with your certificate.

I have not seen the MYLT program yet so I cannot comment. BUT I think the idea of issuing beads is way off.

Here's my $.02 worth on the numbers; whoever made that decision A) is not a volunteer and has not worked with them, B) has not worked in either a scout shop or distributorship where the customer buys the uniforms, and C) didn't realize that Cub Scouts and Venturers still use the red so people will continue using red with the centennial uniform.

Let's face it we volunteers here the most complaints about the cost of uniforms. And how many parents buy all new insignia when they their bear goes into Webelos, or their Scout outgrows their uniform? I know that my mom took off all the insignia off my blues and put in on my ODL when I became a Webelos and got the ODL becasue I outgrew the blues. Also when I needed a new ODL as a Scout, I took off all my patches and placed them on the new uniform. So I am sure that we will be hearing complaints from parents about this.

Also from a scout shop and distributorship perspective, this is now more inventory I must carry. Let's face it most distributorships do not have alot of room to display the merchandise. And at the national scout shop I worked at, since we didn't have alot of space to display merchandise, we were constantly rearranging sections of the store to squeeze in the latest must display. It seemed like once a month we had to do some rearranging.

Finally If CS and Venturers are still authorized to wear red numbers, why make a separate issue patch? Unless they bring back the Blue and Gold numbers for Cubs and make Green and Yellow numbers for Venturers I think the new number will go away when more complaints are received.

Then again if they make the CS numbers navy and White, they can then bring back Sea Scout numbers!

My troop's gifts varied. Sometimes it was a custom Eagle knife, sometimes a custom eagle belt buckle, for me I got a gold eagle pendant. But it wasn't from the BSA catalog, although they nbow have some nice options.

One of the things I've given is a copy of the 1910 BSA handbook. I have someone do the calligraphy in the appropriate spots.

This is a definite no-no and he can be fired over this. I should know my then fiancee and I had to be in separate buildings when she used to visit me at camp.

As a former pro who had a very similar situation arise in a unit in his district, I can tell you that from the council's perspective it's "a unit problem." and they will not get involved. Now if it is a district chairman and a unit commissioner, or two summer camp staff members, then it's a council issue.

While discreetly talking to folks is a good idea, as mentioned already it may not work. In the two situations at summer camp that I've seen arise and have used this apporach with, one person denied everything, one person said it's none of my business, and the second couple didn't care who knew. With that couple the camp director was useless to stop the situation. Only the medic's commanding officer, who made a surprise visit to discuss the situation with her, was able to solve the problem.

In my opinion, discuss this privately with the CC or COR. It's there place to(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Quick question, doesn't the BOR have to intitial in the books when the Scout passes the BOR? I dont' have the latest edition of the handbook easily accessible, but the 9th ed that I used required the BOR to sign off in the handbook. and the 10th ed also has the BOR signing off. So how can a Scout pass a BOR if it is not signed off in his handbook?

I was always taught that the Scout's handbook WAS the official record for the Scout, except for Eagle which has the separate application, and that if the BOR didn't intial the book, it is not official that he has pass the BOR. The advancement forms that everyone turns in is for council records only. I might add that when we caught errors in the council's records, for those copies of the advancement reports we couldn't find, we used the Scout's handbook to get the required information.

I know every unit has their own culture, and i have heard of both BORs as needed and once a month. But I never heard of every other month, or once a quarter as in another thread.

For most lodges, Vigil names are in Delaware, aka Lenni Lenape. However you do have a few lodges that use local Native American languages. Chilanktakoba Lodge 397 out of SE Louisiana Council uses Choctaw.

Here is my $.02 worth. I am glad you are not going in with guns blazing. This is Scouting and the Scout needs to deal with HIS challenge. The standard, having a handbook for your BOR, has been made (hopefully by the boys and not adults), and he made a mistake. Use that as a learning experience. I personally reccomend another adult counsel him.

In reference to the Tenderfoot, was he going for his Tenderfoot or Second Class BOR? As stated elsewhere expectations do increase as you move along the program. That is a questionable call, depending upon the circumstances, although I am leaning towards also delaying passing.

The BOR could have done things a little differntly. While I would not have passed the young man, the standard is he needs his book, I would encourage him to come again the next week, with his book, and basically have the BOR review the book to verify and sign off.

If you do counsel your son, please tell him it's not the end of the world. I know a young man you was denied his EAGLE BOR becasue he could not do it before leaving for basic training with the Air Force Reserve. After boot camp, he shows up with everythign: handbook, project book, letters of recommendation, full uniform with medals and sash, EVERYTHING, ready for his EBOR. The Dist. Adv. Chair. reviews the application and notices that it was 3 months and a few days after his 18th birthday, and according to National he would have to appeal to them to have his board of review and explain the circumstances for why he should be allowed to have an EBOR. Instead of an EBOR they had a "chat" with him, covering everything that would have been discussed at his EBOR. When he sent in his appeal letter to national, he had several letters supporting the appeal from the committee that would have been his EBOR, unit leaders, and his USAFR commanding officer..

Every council, and somtimes districts, have their own policies towards training. In some fees are not encouraged and the council eats the cost. In others the charges are as minimal as possible, usually to cover food, drinks, and handouts. Sometimes it covers rental fees: camp and/or facilty. Finally some council will hire an outside company to conduct some training, and you have to deal witht he contractor's fees. That happened with my council when they charged $175 for a weekend Wilderness First Aid and CPR class taught by Red Cross. Doing some research, that was cheap compared to elsewhere.

Personally I would include handouts, snacks, and drinks into the fee. Make a nice folder or binder with information, and include the food.

Just my $.02 worth.

I talk from two points of view.

First as a former professional. Webelos to Scout transition is important for 2 reasons. 1) this is where we lose more scouts, and 2) if Troops are not getting new scouts, then the troop will die, something no professional wants.

Let's face it, we have some kids who are burnt out, bored, whatever and want out. We also got parents who are burnt out, tired, etc and don't realize that as Scouts the youth do things on the own more. So some folks see Webelos as the end of the trail, when it's really just begging. So that's one reason why councils are jumping on the band wagon.

The second is that if a troop is not getting an influx of new scouts every year, it will die. Pros look bad and it effects their performance evals if units die. I'll give you one example. Best pack in my district had a troop at the same CO. For whatever reason, the Pack leaders got connected with a troop at a different CO, and their boys started going there, instead of o the pack's CO's troop. Overtime that troop died becasue they could not get that new influx.

Second as a Scouter. My old unit did not have a feeder pack and while we did survive, we did have some lean years. Our program and organization were stellar, and most of our new scouts were transfers from other units. I was one such case. We did get the occasional Webelos den visiting however. Eventually we did get a feeder pack when we changed COs, and the membership soared until Katrina hit and they lost all but 7 scouts.

My thoughts on the Webelos-to-Scout Transition: Start early! One thing is to use den chiefs. Once we got a feeder pack, we had den chiefs working at all levels. They not only served as assistants for the leaders, but also were role models for the Cubs.

Second the troop leaders should meet with the pack leadership and work out the process. This meeting was usually in the early fall so that calendars and activities could be coordinated. That way the troop knew what the pack was doings, and vice versa. We normally had 1 or two campouts and a meeting coordinated so that the Webelos could attend.

Third we tried to have a "special" meeting night on the Webelos visited. By special, I mean one where an outside speaker was coming in. two of the really popular ones that both the Socuts and Webelos liked were the SWAT team visit and the search and rescue folks. We repeated those a couple of times. Another idea for a meeting we used was Pioneering. more on that next,

Fourth we had the Webelos attend at least one campout, and if possible two. When the district had their own camporee, or the council one was in the fall, we invited the Webelos to attend with us. We also had our own separate campout in which the Webelos were invited that took place in late January, early February ( not a bad time in Louisiana and Mississippi). Usually the campout had a pioneering and/or Wilderness Survival theme. We taught the Webelos how to do lashing, had them build shelters with the Scouts, and had pioneering contests. Dads usually used stayed in tents, or slept in cars. Boys loved this.

Finally we discussed summer camp. Let's face it studies show that if a new scout attends summercamp, he will more likely stay in the program. We tried to get them pumped up for camp as soon as possible so that they could start saving money for it. Heck I got some troops now who invite their Webelos to the OA camp promotion to get them ready.

Just a few ideas

Former Sea Scout and leader here. I also had the pleasure of working with 5th Deal Sea Scouts for 2 months when I was at Kingsdown International Scout Campsite way back when.

How has the changes affected the SA put in place affected Sea Scouts on your side of the pond?

when i worked for dupply division way back when, we actually had a few girl scout units come to the shop to buy program helps, how-to books, pwd cars, etc. The leaders I met complained aboy the program and the lack of support in the form of program materials. One GS leader was also a DL, and started doing the CS activities with her GS. It caught on.

They say they are part of the international Scouting movement, but are they WOSM recognized? I think not.

Also the emphasis seems to be on sports and imaginative games. Not the outdoors and the Grand Game that BP created.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

I believe SctLdr and SctDad are in my council, East Carolina Council, and one may possibly in my district :)Gotta send a PM to them.

Anyway my $.02 cents worth is to definitely check the weather and be prepared to cancel or modify an event. If you are involved with Cub Scouts, I would be prepared to cancel sooner than with a Scout troop. Some parents just aren't campers, and having a horrible first camping experience ruins it sometimes. Also with that many young ones running around, it's definatley a tricky situation.

Also if something ceremonial is involved, like an OA crossover,it is better to cancel. Not only will everyone's minds be on the weather, but also you don't several hundreds of dollars in regalia getting ruined. Trust me regalia is not only is it expensive , but time consuming to make. And I have called off a ceremony due to weather.

However Scouts are expected to be a little better prepared for foul weather. I've camped in storms. Heck I did the Wilderness Survival portion of the old Brownsea JLT program when the very outer bands of a hurricane were hitting us. Luckily it was wind and rain with no lightening or tornadoes. That stuff began after graduation the next day. But twice now I've had to move to permanent structures because of tornado warnings and watches. And these things came upon use very unexpectedly.

One final note. If you are having a mixed CS and BS activity and the weather is going to be bad, even if the Scouts would be able to handle it, just go ahead and cancel it. One of the worse experiences in my scouting career was a joint activity with our feeder pack to do a hike about 4 hours away. We stayed overnight in a church gym, which wasn't bad, but when the weather turned foul, none of the CS parents wanted to do the hike. And since some of those parents also had scouts in the troop, they did not want us doing the hike either, despite all the scouts being prepared to do so. That ticked of all the scouts. So avoid the angst and just cancel.

2CubDad,

In the one case I was personally involved in where an Eagle Candidate sent an appeal to National for his EBOR, the Eagle Candidate was responsible for, and sent the petition to national. Grant you the young man had several letters of support for granting the EBOR from all his scout unit leaders, District Adv. Chair, and his USAFR commanding officer accompanying the petition. Luckily it was a proforma appeal: he could not get an EBOR due to basic training and had to get it done after returning home. He did get his Eagle BTW.