Eagle92

2CubDad,

Yes most training is on weekends, and that's because the trainers are also volunteers who work jobs during the week. But there are ways to get training during the week, especially if there is a group of you. I know alot of summer camps offers SM and ASM Specific training during summer camp. Also I had a CS trainer who would do weekday nite training for specific units. Usually a pack would make are the arrangements, the trainer get the staff together, and the class wouldbe for that unit with anyone needing training being invited. This worked out great for some folks.

from what I've been told, the blue and Gold ladies uniforms are no longer available. But someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes training records are a major problem. I've already posted in another thread the problems I encounter when I tried to get a list of trained leaders in the district. I was never trained, despite working for this council at one time and conducting a bunch of trainings as both a pro and Scouter. PTC staff from my district were not trained. SMs who had not only gone through Woodbadge, but staffed it were not trained. folks who had their Training Award, Key and the various Cub Leader awards were not trained. Took two years to fix the records and they are still not 100%.

Ok this has gone a little beyond what I intended as my question. When I used the term "Guests" in the question, I should have stated out of lodge Arrowmen attending a function. I did not mean non members, but Arrowman from a different lodge.

John KC, We are going "to do our best" to make sure the brother can make it.

My specific inquiriy was for the Vigil Ceremony only.

When it comes to non-members concerend about the Ordeal I have talked at length about the entire procedure, asking that they do not discuss it with their son so as not to lose the significance. While I have not at this time let them read the ceremony script, as this was phone conversations, I would allow them to read it. I would strongly discourage them from attending the atcual ceremony though, but that is a decision for the lodge key 3. I also have suggested that they talk to Arrowmen in their unit, both youth and adults. That usually helps.

In referecne to non OA members who are in Scouting,i.e. parents who are Scouters, I would try everythign in my power to discuss everything without showing them the script since it would lose something when they become eligible to join the OA.

The reason why the OA wants to safeguard stuff is to keep some of the mystery to the entire process. In my expierence, not knowing what the ceremony entails makes it more significant than knowing what will happen ahead of time. Think of Christmas and Birthday presents.

A few things. Yes a Scout is responsible for maintaining a record of when he got his MBs. BUT that record is included in his HANDBOOK. Some summer camps do not issue blue cards. The only records of a scout earning a MB are given to the unit leaders, not the individual scouts. So my question is this How can a Scout be responsible for keeping something he never received? Second some units don't use the blue cards. They use their own forms, being thrifty. So again I ask how can a Scout be asked to show something he never received?

The handbook has the information in it, and it is verified by the signature that is required. So showing the handbook should be enough. Also council should have reviewed the records and approved the EBOR, so the records aspect should not be a problem. have some council's screwed up. Yes, it happened to a very good friend of mine who, according to council was only First Class Scout and not a life, but hat is why UNITS keep copies of the advancement reports.

Not at home so I can't get the citation, but those two lodges you cited are in violation of national policy and have been for several years now. I know as I had to intercede for an election team one time becasue the SM of the unit was opposed to one scout, and wanted his name removed from the list. The election team did their talk to the SM prior to the election, and I went over it again with the SM to make sure he understood what he was signing. The SM had no problem with signing the form with the youth's name on it. Once the election was held and and the youth in question was voted in, the SM tried to coerce the election team into changing the results because "the scout is a pain in the $$$ and I can't beleive he got elected." he even tried to coerce me into changing the form and said I knew nothing about the OA. Funny thing is, he was an Ordeal member, and I was a Vigil.

But yes having a SM veto a youth after being elected is against national OA policies as expressed in the Guide to Inductions if I am not mistaken. If not that work, then the Offciers and Advisors guide. If a SM feels strongly about someone not being eligible, then htey need to bring it up PRIOR to the election being conducted.

In referecne to Southern Region's Seabadge course potential location, has anyone considered Pamilico Sea Base in East Carolina Council? Grant you they are about to get hit by Hannah, but they have a real nice set up there.

Tommy,

welcome and good luck. Some other options to raise money, if possible, are car washes, and cleanups, especially big events. Grant you it may be more leaders and Webelos doing the work, but you can raise funds. more later

A couple of things. 1. Please don't confuse a council's "scout shop" with a nationally owned and run scout shop. The technical term for a council shop is a distributorship and they can basically do as they please, i.e. place a sale on discontinued merchandise, keep older patches, etc. That's because national sold them the merchandise and the distributor is now the owner of it. basically it's just like if a local, non Scouting shop, i.e. JC Penny, was selling you the stuff. They will keep it until it's gone.

National scout shops will have the most up to date stuff and will discard stuff following National's directives. I know as I threw out a lot of Garfield stuff way back when. Since national owns the shop and merchandise in it, they can do as they please.

2)Look to distributorships for the older stuff. I know that I can still get red loops, old trained insignia and shirts from the distributor since it's their stock and national will not reimburse them since it's discontinued. heck If i wanted I could get a Tiger Cub Coach patch from the local store.

3) Don't know why national had this paranoia against red. Does someone not like the color? Or are they concerned abotu the international implications? When I did the European Camp Staff Program, people were surprised thet the BSA used red as it symbolized communism over there.

What is the best way to get rid of mold on a canvas tent? I was thinking soaking it in bleach or paling it in a n industrial size washer and dryer. Any help appreciated.

What I've given in the past is a copy of the 1910 BSA Handbook. Everyone gets a kick out of it.

On a different note, the nicest and most appreciated "Thank You" gift I got from an eagle was a copy of the BSA handbook I got my Eagle under as my book went for a little swim.

Welcome Aboard. Once uniform, always uniform. Except for Sea Scouts, but I aint going there. Seriously if the Scout is uncomfortable, definitely get another pair. Or you can get the newer Switchbacks that are pants that zip off into shorts.

GA HB,

As someone who's been an OA member for 19 years and active for 15, IT'S BEEN AN AWESOME EXPERIENCE!!!!!

Like anything there can be problems. I was not initially active because my chapter was not active: no meetings, no newsletters, nothing. It was only when I went back to summercamp and ran into an old HS friend that I found out what's going on and and got active. I have never regretted it.

The purpose of the Order of the Arrow is fourfold:

* To recognize those Scout campers who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives

* To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit

* To promote Scout camping

* To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others

Now do we get some slackers, absolutely. Do some Scouts think it's a popularity contest when they vote, yes. But if you are gung ho about Scouting, then the OA is for you. OA is what YOU make of it, so don't let some slackers discourage you. Alot of times they go through the Ordeal, get their flap, and are never heard form again.

Activities that OA do include Work at camp, work at camp, work at camp. Yep that's what WWW on every OA patch means ( although you didn't hear it from me) But we do have some fun stuff. Conclaves are section events that happen every year and are a BLAST They have opportunities for education and fun. No work is involved unless you are host lodge, and that rotates. And even then it's fun. NOAC is held every two years and is a BLAST, think minijamboree on a college campus. It also has a copmbination of fun activities and educational opportunities. Then there is OA Trail Crew at Philmont, Ocean Adventure at Sea Base, and Wilderness Adventure in Northern Tier. These programs allow Arrowmen to got to a high adventure base DIRT CHEAP. Oh almost forgot NLS, and advance leadership seminar that I'm told is great.

My favorite is the European Camp Staff Program. Although ECSP is open to anyone 18 to 30 and will pay half your travel expenses, OA provides a campership that pays ALL of your travel expenses, medical insurance, and gives you a $100 per week in the form of a scholarship, if you are 20 and below and in the OA. Wish they had that program in place when I did ECSP.

Now I don't understand why the dad was with the son during an Ordeal. Only 1 time I saw that happen, and the son was mentally challenged and I was glad for the extra set of eyes during the Ordeal. usually they separate parents from their kids and siblings from each other. that kinda takes away fromt he expereince if you ask me.

While the OA is known for the ceremonies and Native American Dance, I've been involved in both, that is just one area of many the OA has to offer. For me personally once I got active, it gave me a chance to develop with additional leadership opportunities not available to a 19 year old ASM. OA kept me active in the troop, and provided me with growth opportunities that have made an impact with the troop I was in and in every Scouting position I've been in since.

I know that there are some unit leaders who think the OA will take their Scouts away. In my opinion, the OA makes scouts better.

That's my $.02 worth. Good luck and Happy Scouting. PM me if you have any questions.

I was told that the new sheets will be out in September, same time as the Insignia Control Guide.

here is link that may help

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/2008UniformGuide.pdf

A Scout is HELPFUL

Emb021,

I hear ya. I was referring to my expereince only. In retrospect I think the age factor played a major part. After all I was 22, and looked a little younger. In my situation after about 6 months of being in my job, those who didn't know me either did know me or have heard about me. Still it got interesting a few times that I showed up with the OA ceremony team to do an AOL/Crossover Ceremony and introduced myself as the adviser to a CM (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Ok some clarification.

1) Brother is a Vigil form another lodge. So he's been there, done that got the triangle. i thought it would be nice to include him.

One bit of complication I just discovered. Brother may not be currenly registered in OA and possibly scouting. Brother in college and may not have kept up to date with registration. we'll see.

eagle 92

Ok my $.02 worth.

Knots are important because they do show youth, parents, and other scouters how involved you are and some of your accomplishments Should one try and go after everyone knot available, NO, go after the ones that relate to your duties. And definately don't wear knots you didn't earn.

Now do some Scouters wear knots for the wrong reasons, absolutely, and I've been just as guilty as the next person. I intially wore only my Eagle, AOL, and youth religious knots. However once I got on the district committee as a 22 yo OA Chapter Adviser, those who didn't know me questioned my abilities to do the job and my knowledge of Scouting. I thought that by earning a chestful of knots, that would change people's opinions. And I went after the Scouter's Training Award. I discovered that wearing knot's don't change people's opinions. Doing your job correctly and being successful in your position does the trick.

I can't fault people who don't want to wear knots they have earned. heck I haven't sewed on my Dis. Com.Key knot on all my uniforms yet, and I've had them a year now. But on my primary uniform it is on and wghen I was doing training, I encouraged everyone to keep up with the awards they are eligible for.

Dean,

The G2SS is not something to play around with. Yes you can go beyond G2SS in safety, and I recommend that, but the G2SS is the MINIMUM safety requirements. Failure to follow that can land you in some serious trouble should an accident occur.

In reference to the original question, what I was told is that ANY pioneering structure over 6 feet in height, whether at a council, district, or unit event, MUST be inspected by a NCS certified COPE Director. grant you that was back when COPE directors were still certified for doing climbing as well, but that is what I was told at NCS and when I worked at summer camp with an NCS instructor.

Maybe some of your contacts from NCS may be able to give you clarification. or try national risk management for advice.

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

In reference to why my lodge doesn't issue Ordeal flaps.

The original reasons why the lodge did not want issue Ordeal flaps was the following 1)gives an incentive to new members to get Brotherhood, 2) gives incentive to new members to go to Conclave as we issue a conclave delegate flap. Now there's a third reason: it gives incentive for new Arrowmen to earn lodge's First Year Arrowman Award Flap (a restricted 1 per lifetime flap for those who earn it). There may be a possible fourth reason now: it would be considered a new issue flap and therefor we would have to discontinue issuing the Brothrhood and Vigil flaps that we have an adundance of.

Trust me this has caused lots of discussions among the ECM over the past few years, but the youth want it this way, and the SE said it's OK. Not much that can be changed there.

In reference to no individual honors flaps.

In August or September 2007, National sent out an operations update stating lodges needed to discontinue having individual honor flaps, i.e. red border for Ordeal members, gold for Brotherhood, Silver for Vigils. This update has ticked all of the youth members on the ECM committee. After talking to the SE, he is allowing us to continue with individual honor flaps until our supply is gone, then we need to redesign the flap with no distinctions. As mentioned already, this will take a while because we just restocked our flaps prior to the update.

What's interesting is that at this time, national recommends that restrictions be removed on flaps, but does not require it yet. That was also in the update last year.

I would have to agree with the Load Snoring bear, find out why he wants to wear it as there may be a reason for it. My current lodge does not issue Ordeal flaps, only Brotherhood and Vigil, and flaps are restricted in that you have to do 7 hours of cheerful service to a council camp. So we have lots of folks wearing NOAC fundraiser flaps, older lodge flaps, and conclave flaps they didn't attend etc.

I know about national doing away with the individual honors, but our SE said it's ok to continue with the practice until the current supply of flaps is exhausted. Between just restocking before the update came out, and having the flaps restricted (which national only suggests we do away with at the moment0, it will be another 3-5 years before we will issue flaps out when people get their Ordeal, besides a new SE or the ECM changes their mind which hasn't happened every time a youth has brought up the issue for the past five years.

it can be challenging for a new scouter, especially if the youth still view him as such. I had that problem with some of my challenging scouts. One thing i've seen done in other scouting associations is that once you age out, you need to join another unit to prevent that conflict.

As for the immature new scouter, he needs a wake up call and fast. I had to report a YPT issue to my boss because a young scouter, turned 18 the week before the incident,did something at summercamp like he was just one of the guys. While I do not know what happened to the young man, the possibility of criminal charges and permanent disbarment from BSA were brought up by the SE. Obviously once I brought it to the SE's attention, it became his problem and not mine, and I had no further dealings with the matter.

He definitely needs YPT and Fast Start ASAP. And if he is a slacker as described, I would even review it with him as well.I would also have a meeting with him and the CC. He needs to be given some guidelines, advice and expectations to his performance. He needs to know that just because he is an Eagle, doesn't automatically make him an ASM. Further because he is an Eagle MORE is expected from him. He needs to set the example because he IS the one the younger scouts will look to and emulate. He supposedly lives up to the Scout Oath and Law by earning Eagle, but now he is under a microscope because he is wearing that knot. He MUST live up to the high expectations.

Further I would discuss in this meeting that his performance to date as a leader has not met standards and he needs to improve, giving him until the next recharter. Otherwise you can remove him from the charter and ask that he joins another unit as a Scouter.

Good Luck

PS. make sure he filled out a Scouter application.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

talk to OA as well as they now have a Scoutreach prgram. more later

I don't know about the new programs that BSA uses, but once upon a time they kept you listed as a youth. I filled out the paperwork to be a scouter and was listed on the charter as such. A friend of mine the same age, was accidentally left on the charter as a youth for 2 more years. Plus I can give you a few other examples of aged out youth's being left on charters.

I ask because although I've been around my current lodge a while, I'm still learning how they do things. And I don't want to upset some of my folks. Also I emailed my lodge contact about inviting the candidate's Vigil brother from out of state since the candidate served as his younger brother's elangomat way back when, but have not gotten a response yet. I definitely think the brother would come since he showed up to his nephew's crossover.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)