Eagle92

This special eagle knot definitely sounds like a fundraiser's idea. While I am not opposed to recognizing NESA members, why not just bring back the dangle? Good enough for the OA, why not for NESA.

Also Philmont already has special recognitions, why do they need a knot?

Loud Snoring Bear,

Yeah I know I've been doing a little more than I should in the past 18 months. Attendance prior to me taking over as chap. adviser was on a good nite 3 youth members. At the time this happened, the membership VC dropped the ball and my CC and I decided to make the calls. It had got better later when some fresh blood caming in at that Ordeal and they took over some offices, and the CC took off and was. But we have lost some of those great folks to college or family moves with in the past few months so we are down to 2 officers again. Luckily the new CC is a young, motivated Arrowman who will go far and his dad is also a motivated Arrowman who took on the responsiblity of Assoc. Chapt. Adv. I don't want to say anything more because I will be giving away what I am doing to improve the chapter.

Neil,

As for me being a DE, I saw the light and left the profession. I am now a SCOUTER. And hopefully in May a Cub Scouter working with my son in the "Blue Terror."

Ok in my 15 years of being an active Arrowman I've encountered a problem in reference to unit elections and the Ordeal for the first time last year and while I tried some things to solve the situation over the past year, With unit elections coming up again, I may encoutner the problem again and want some other ideas.

I have a super unit of 50+ scouts who have little to no involvement. despite the fact that the old SM is a Vigil Honor member. When I went with the election team to the unit, I out of the 18 scouts eligble, about half didn't want to be elected as they wanted nothing to do with the OA. That was a shocker, but alright the OA isn't for everyone. When we had the call out ceremony, the ones chosen seemed surprised and apothetic. Sent out letter to all the candidates inviting them to a candidate's information session/ chapter social and none showed up.

Then came the deuzy. I was making calls to remind folks about the ordeal and how we have a carpool so that they can make it to the Ordeal. I had one mother of a scout from the unit be completely rude, wanted to know why i wanted to harass her son, and wanted to know what the old SM and new SM knew about the OA. I politely answered her questions and was told basically her son was working on his Eagle and didn't need any distraction before she hung up on me.

Called the next candidate from that unit and underwent a 1.5 hour interrogation of the OA because of what he has heard from friends and what they both read on the internet. Although he showed up friday nite at the camo, he backed down during the POC and went home that nite. only got 1 active youth member out of the unit.

OK your thoughts on the situation and ideas before I reveal what I did.

Having gone to and worked at a variety of camps. Here are a few observations.

1) You need a motivated, enthusiastic, and honest staff. It starts at the top with the Camp Director and

goes all the way down to the first year CITs. I've seen camp with decent food and fair facilites

outperform a cmap with brand new facilities, catered food, yet had a very poor camp director which

affected the rest of the staff.

2) Develope an active program outside of the MB classes. Busy hands are happy hands.

3)PROMOTE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE! If you've had problems in the past and actively worked on them to improve, to point that there is a major turnaround and you are now attracting OOC units, then promote the camp to your own council.

4) Use the OA members. Even if their units go OOC, they still do their ordeals and workday at the council camp. The members will see the improvements going on and it will get back to the youth and adult leaders..

One thing that has kept me and friends active while in college was OA. Because the events are mostly weekends, we had a lot come in. Also one thing my old troop did was start a Venturing Crew for the older Scouts and younger leaders. For those that were active with the troop, they acted more as an old Leadership Corps or Venture patrol, but were registed as a crew and worked their own venturing advancement. 4 times a year, usually around the college and HS holidays, the venture crew did their own thing.

In addition to all the above negative aspects, there are a bunch of positive aspects.

1) Really making friends and working with the volunteers, especially if they view you as a "real scout

leader." Best impression I ever made with some volunteers was when I was at an Ordeal and busting my

butt in the mud to prepare for the ceremony that nite, since I did ceremonies as a youth and love working with ceremonialists. Some of the volunteers in my district thought I was hiding and sleeping somewhere as they did not know where i went off to. When I showed up in muddied, wet, cammies from busting butt, the first words out of the adult I've been working with to the rest of the group was "We got ourselves a real scout leader." and proceeds to tell them everything I did. What really got them on my side was a few minutes later some council level scouter in a spotless uniform whom I didn't know comes in, looks at me and said scornfully "been sleeping in the mud?" to which I replied "In my old lodge a clean Arrowman is considered a lazy Arrowman." and I had my volunteers rolling on the floor laughing.

2)Recruiiting and starting new untis as very fun as I go to see the lookon the faces as people got introduced to the program. I had experienced an especially great pleasure in starting a minority unit in a very under served segment of the population. Working with the leaders, helping them to recruit members, getting sponsors, and seeing them at camp where I introduced them to one of my troop's traditions was an awesome experience.

You must weigh the benefits and costs.

Although it's been a while since I was a Sea Scout and leader, I love discussing the topic because Sea Scoutin has been the red-headed step child for so long that most people, including a few professionals I've run into, always give me the "They still have Sea Scouts?" question, whenever I am out promoting my council's sea base at conclaves. Luckily the national Venturing director is pro Sea Scout and the program is becoming better known. Heck I've even seen Holmes in a Sea Scout uniform.

While I do not have the 10th edition manual and may get flamed, I do have the 9th ed. first printing easily available, can't find my 2nd printing one. Anyway on page 3-15 it states the following: "This chapter describes the wearing and insignia placement of the traditional uniform. Ships can adapt these recommedndations to the uniform they have selected." And page 3-18 is entitled "Recommended Placement of Sea Explorer Insignia" and it shows placement for temporary insignia. Page 3-19 then gives a written description of what goes where and has an asterick on "Right Pocket*" with a foot note stating "*Or approximate location if jumper does not have right pocket." So if a ship allows its members who wear the traditional uniform, then what is wrong with that as it is allowed?

While the crackerjacks do look good, they are impractical at times. I disliked my first ship's uniform of blue jeans and blue polo with First Class Anchor, Ship Number, and CO, or a blue hooded sweatshirt with the above information. When I got Shanghied into being the skipper of the council's seabase ship, I am glad that the members decided on uniform similar to the Summer whites on page 3-16 of the manual. Only difference is that we wore a navy belt or leather belt and navy shorts/ pants. Since the OA officers were the ones that pushed the seabase program, and all members of the ship were Vigil members, it was a no brainer to allow the OA flaps on the uniform.

Here are some answers for you:

Is it possible to have no fundraising experience and do a good job as an entry-level DE?

Yes but you really need to pay attention at PDL-1 and pray you have a wiz of a FOS chairman. I lucked out in that my FOS chair knew ever business leader and wealthy individual in my district. He came from old money, had a family business and was a pillar in the community.

Is it possible to have a personal and family life and do a good job?

In my opinion not really. It is a very demanding job with little family time because you are working nites when most people are home with their families. And if you are unfortunate to get a jerk of a boss, there will be problems. For example my boss rearranged my summer schedule prior to my wedding. So instead of doing my shift at summer camp before my wedding, I had to be at camp the week after I got married. To make matters worse, he didn't tell the camp director about the change. So I my absence that week almost canceled a sea base expedition, and when I did show up there was nothing for me to do, but I couldn't go home.

Assuming good job performance, is it possible to stay in one district for several years for family stability, or do good DEs get bumped up and out quickly?

Depends on the SE. Usually good DEs stay in a spot from 3-5 years and then move on. Occassionally you have folks who cannot leave the area due to spouse's job. Eventually they do get promoted, but not as fast as they should. It too my FD 12 years to get in that position because his wife had her own medical practice. A good friend of mine got a FD spot after 5 years because he was able to move.

If you are interested in working for the BSA and don't want as many headache's, try Supply division. It is harder to get into management because someone has to die or retire to get into a position, but it is mostly a 9-6 job with some night and weekend work. You usually have to start out as a clerk, unless you have some connections, but once you get into management, it is not nearly as bad as being a DE.

I have attended and staffed camps that had female Explorers/Venturers active with non-camp posts/ crews working staff both over and under 18. And I have never had problems with them. They have know the rules, followed them and everything works out well. Like someone said already by the end of staff week or the first week of camp, the infatuations and flirtations are pretty much over with.

I also had ladies who had specialty skills work camp with me, specifically a COPE director and medic. GREAT SCOT the problems that occurred with them two. And with one case it was difficult to correct the situation because her brother was a SDE for the council. The problem only went away when her fiance' came to visit. The Medic problem was solved easily because she was TDY, and her CO, who was a board member and heard about her and the aquatics director, visited camp had a little chat. Problem solved.

As for females and NYLT, since I don't know the new requirements ans syllabus for the course, I can't really say one thing or the other. However, I do remember that during the JLT course I staffed, we did have 2 Explorers on staff. Grant you they were male, but primary registration was a post, not a troop.

Sorry about that, got distracted and hit the wrong button. Anyway if the above summarizations are correct here is my $.02 worth. YES the patrol method is not being used as much and is not promoted as it should be in training, unless you have some old school leaders and trainers. Also it is an acknowledged fact that BSA screwed up in the 70s and GBB had to become a retread again to get the BSA somewhat back on its feet by writing the 1979 handbook.

Thinking back on it, I remember as a youth having patrol meetings outside of troop meetings, and organizing and leading a patrol hike. While I did not do patrol alone camping, I do remember that once the troop arrived, each patrol was on their own for a specified length of time until it was time for activities. However the specter of lawsuits was around when I organized the hike as my SM required at least one adult accompany us on our hike. Luckily a dad tagged along for the hike and let us do all the work. This was during the 9th edition was out.

I also remember going through Brownsea 22, which in my council considered the youth equivalent of Woodbadge. There was still an emphasis on patrol method and learning. Kudu would be proud because they had 8 patrols and staff spreadout over 1600+ acres of land. Only saw everyone at the beginning of the week, when we switched from "incountry" and "backcountry" during the middle of the week ( and that was on the backpacking trail), Cleanup and Service Project day on Friday, and graduation on Saturday.

When I went through SM Fundamentals and served on JLT staff, during the 10th edition, there was less emphasis on the patrol method during the training. Yes everyone worked together as a team, and yes there were minor competition between patrols, but nowhere near the inter-patrol competition I remember during Brownsea. Kudu would not be happy with the JLT course as everyone camped within 300 yards of one another.

What's the solution, don't really know. Yes the lawyers are killing us with costs and fees. And yes leaders are afraid of the threat of lawsuits, happened in my old troop as we had a family who DID sue an organization they disagreed with and WON the case. So some of the things BSA has put in place that are challenges to fully reimplementing the patrol method are her to stay. But I also know that with the very active lives some of our members live, it is hard for themto meet at times outside the troop, and even during troop times it seems. Maybe some old school trainers, gold loops, and new Woodbadgers should ge together and try to work something out.

Ok I jumped around on this thread, so correct me if I'm wrong but the main argument, in the classical sense, is that BSA has watered down leadership development and the patrol method in order to have more emphasis as a result of the 70s. Also although national preaches patrol method, in training it doesn't emphasis patrol method enough. Am I correct in this?

DON'T DO IT!!!!!! LOL.

Seriously though Beavah and BadenP offer great advice. Other advice I suggest is talk to the volunteers in the district, if given the opportunity, during the interview process, and also talk to professionals you know and respect about possible council you will be interviewing with.

I say talk to the volunteers because 1) they know the territory, 2) will tell you up front what is right and what is wrong in the district, and 3)may give you subtle hints as to the situation you are getting into. First interview I went on was the council business meeting in a small, but very well involved council. had lunch with several dist. committee members and had a real good time. Lost out to a local Scouter who had left to join the Army, go to college and came back home. Me him in PDL1 and was real jealous of his situation.

SEs and DFSs gain reputations in the professional community. Had I known what I was getting I would not have taken the offer. My SE and DFS did NOT have good reputations, to the point that at the 98 NLTC a SE I interviewed with told me to "watch your back" with the DFS. Also when at PDL1, whenever I was asked what council I was from, the folks were like "oh XYZ's council." If I had talked to some of my professional friends a little more, I would have been told "yeah I here there are some issue there," " there have been a lot of new DEs there recently," and my personal favorite "Oh s$%!, stay the h3!! away from there."

It is a challenge and demanding job, especially on the family. I left the DE position and went to supply division because my wife did threaten to divorce me, and we were only married three months, and knew what the job entailed becuase we dated the entire time I was in the job. One of my coworkers was divorced for three times because of the job, and another DE's wife I knew walked out on him.

How many of you folks know about the European camp Staff Program? Howmany of you folks know someone who has done it? How many of you folks have done it, like me?

When I get home I'll post the exact requirements, but here are the requirements as I recall. At the last ECM they added 1 more requirement, which may be must attend a chapter workday and /or chapter fellowship. I was absent that meeting because of a newborn, and don't think the new requirement cards are out yet.

From the top of my head here are some of the basic requirements.

1) Attend 4 chapter meetings.

2) Attend 1 Ordeal besides the one you became a member.

3) Attend a Section Conclave OR Lodge Fellowship (NOAC may also be an

option, but it's one fun activity).

4) Conduct a unit camp promotion OR serve on the lodge's camp

promotion both at the council camporee

5) Maintain active membership with your unit.

Again they added a sixth requirement that I don't the exact details of. All requirements are signed off by the CC or CA except 5, the SM or other approved leader must sign, and must be completed within 12 months of joing the OA. The award is available to both Youth and adults, it comes with a nice certificate, and is limited to 1 per recipient.

here is a link to a picture:

http://www.oaimages.com/cgi-bin/buildpage.cgi?pp=117&dd=1&ii=3739

My current lodge has had some membership problems in the past. Heck even last year we met everything for quality lodge EXCEPT growth, missed out by 40+ new members. BUT our attendence at functions is increasing. Our lodge leadership two years ago came up with some interesting changes that some people just went crazy over. The poor lodge chief was getting calls at his house with people screaming at him and it took three to four months for things to finally settle down. I think things settled down because we saw the changes work after the first Ordeal it was applied to.

Some of the changes included

1) Creating a First Year Arrowman Award and promoting it heavily.

2) Changing our Ordeal schedule, which was the most radical and

controversial change. While it took 2 or three Ordeals to

finalize the schedule, it had immediate results. We moved up

times of the work and ceremonies, pushed dinner back so the new

members could eat with their chapters, and after new member

orientation we had a camp wide game with chapters as the teams.

Did we tick off some of the old timers, yes. Did the new members

love it. Yes and to prove it we had approximately 50 new members

attend conclave a month later, that was almost half of the

contingent.

3)Changing our lodge calander of events. We moved up our fall events by one month so that activities won't conflict with the Thanksgiving and Christmas seasons. While it will be implemented this year for the first time, alot of our adults and older Arrowmen in college say that this change will help out.

As the lodge Chief and his adviser said, while we must preserve the traditions and spirit of the Order, we must adapt.

Don't have the most current edition now, but the last edition did say something to the effect that the sash is appropriate on special occasions, i.e COHs, dis and cncl. banqets, etc. We had this question come up at a roundtable because we are trying to reestablish the OA in the district and we wanted Arrowmen to wear the OA sash at the district banquet. It actually helped. We had several adults wear their sashes to the district banquet, had a nice little set up with more info on the chapter (and to brag on the success to date of our efforts to rebuild), and we now have some movitivated new adult members in the chapter who are supporting the program and the youth in the chapter. IMHO having Arrowman with sashes on is THE best form of promotion, especially since my current lodge does not give out flaps to new members until they do an additional 7 hours of service.

On a personal note, I think it is appropriate for the OA sash to be worn at COHs and other special event. After all the youth of the troop/team elected him into the Order because he was an example to them of the Scout Oath and Law. It is not only a recognition of being a member of our Order, but also a recognition of the esteem and respect the Arrowman holds within the troop. After all if the Scouts didn't approve of the Arrowman, he wouldn't have been elected.

Rebuilding and starting new chapters is tough and I wish the best of luck inthis endevour. In my experience, it takes about 3 years to rebuild. I am in the same situation, and just when I get things going, I lost my very active CC and three active members to out of state schools. Almost back to square one, but we are surviving.

Advice so far has been very good. Now my $.02 worth.

Now some additional ideas.

1) Try to get some activity that the OA is traditionally known for

and use it to build interest in the chapter. My chapter is now

known as the singers because we have a powwow drum and several

individuals intersting in singing. Don't go overboard as activity

you select may not be for everyone, i.e. sining in my chapter's

case. BUT we had one meeting dedicated to teaching songs, and have an open drum for our members. That has picked up a few new faces.

2) Go after the adults. If you got their support you can get the youth. I've been fortunate to get some CS leaders who were active as youth back involved and their expertise is great. Also get the new adult members involved. This has helped tremendously.

3) Get the distrit committee involved and supporting the chapter. There was a major conflict with one district activity and the annual Conclave. Took me years of begging and pleading ot get the date changed, and it only happened becasue the new activity chair, a CS leader, was an Arrowman as a youth. This may not seem like a big deal, but when the biggest OA event outside of a NOAC occurs and you can't go because the chapter needs to work an event, it's not fun.

4) Get youth members active ASAP. My lodge has one incentive for new members to get active, a very attractice, sought after First Year Arrowman Award Lodge Flap. That's helped alot. But on the chapter level get them doing ceremonies, camp promos, unit elections, distict events, etc. as soon as they get in. Busy hands are happy hands.

5) Get involved in district events. Yeah we do the trading post and Call Out Ceremony at the district camporee. But we are now branching out to other events. It increases visibilty and promotes the Order.

6) This last one is a long term membership promotion: GET INVOLVED WITH THE CUB SCOUTS! Get an AOL ceremony team established and do them. We do ceremonies for the district CS campouts, and the Cubs eat it up and want to be apart of the order when they Cross Over. I have never yet either done a ceremony as a youth, or supervised a ceremony that the CS did not want to take pictures of the "Indians." Won't see results for a little while, but that will give a boost down the road.

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Funny story about some "professionals" I met. The council I was in just had three new DEs come in, hadn't even gone through PDL-1 yet. Well they were told that they need to go through the Ordeal and join the OA. Friday nite wasn't to bad for them, but when Saturday morning came and the found out more about the Ordeal, two said a few unScoutlike things and just left. I never saw them again and later found out form my DE that all three had a meeting with the SE monday morning to discuss the Ordeal. Those that left were given their termination papers. The other has had a successful career last I heard.

Yes council can be the CO, but it's my understanding that there is a limit to the number of untis they can sponsor. Mostly councils use it for their summer camp staff as not everyone hired is active in Scouting. In the seven years I've worked summer camp at four different camps, we have had Marines, Navy Corpsman, National Guardsman, seminarians, and outside experts in specialized area for the sea base one council operates. They needed to be registered, and thus the crew.

Also where does it say that a summercamp crew cannot be active year round? While one crew I was associated with did have problems meeting year round, that was the result the camp director moving on. At two of the camops, staff were doing things througout the year. Working council and district events, having parties, doing their own crew events, etc. And My current council has the crew doing council activities periodically throughout the year.

Ok now that I am away form work and had a chance to read fully everything, here's my $.02 worth.

1) While the OA is a youth run organization and you will need a highly motivated youth to be in charge, you also will need a highly motivated adult to be adviser.

2) You will need to promote, promote, and promote AIA at all lodge functions.

3) Take all comers, youth and adult.

4) Have the youth decide if they want to focus on team dancing, or the individual powwow styles: Chicken, Fancy Feather, Grass, Northern traditional, and Straight.

4A) If team dancing must do research on the dance, regalia worn, history etc. This can be a challenge

because a lot of dances have their origins in religion and/or societies. Thus we cannot use them.

4B)If you decide on the individual powwow styles, go to powwows, talk to dancers, visit

www.Powwows.com/gathering.

5) Keep promoting AIA.

6) If possible go to a NOAC, conclave, Indian Summer, Indian Seminar, or even another lodge's AIA training if invited. I know Tiak Lodge in MS and the Carolina Indian Seminar are two excellent seminars I've been to.

Some of the things we've been doing with my current lodge include the following.

1) Have our drum sing when while the candidates are coming into the ceremony ring and as they leave.

2) Having sessions at fellowship with outside experts.

3) Putting on an abbreviated powwow Saturday after the ceremonies.

4) Created a yahoo group for communictaion

5) Took the information I've been collection in two binders, scanned it, and added the information from a

Occoneechee Lodge AIA CD-ROM I got to create a lodge AIA info disk. And this disk covers Ceremonies,

Singing, Dancing, and extras fo Indian Lore MB.

6) Gotten dancers to OA nites at summercamp. I got to hand it to the dancers as they did that on their own.

Finally when the council asked the lodge to do the arena show at camporee, I jumped at it. Talk about getting a boost in interest.

One final note, if you are going to get a dance team going, please do it right. Do the research, go to powwows, talk to people, take your time making regalia, etc. There are a number of Native Americans who do not like the OA because some of our Brothers have been disrespectful, not done their homework in regards to regalia and the dance styles, or just think they can go crazy in the arbor. While I have never seen anyone asked to leave, it's a sad site to see a young Arroman, you can tell by the sash, dancing in inappropriate regalia and being ostracized. And my old lodge did disband the team after complaints by the local nation and the team refusing to change anything.

I sent you a PM, but anyone interested can send me a PM as well. I've restarted dance teams and am in the process of getting my current lodge's up and running. I have some resources available and advice if needed.

Scout Nut

In reference to the tour permits, on the CS level they are rarely, if ever used by a lot of folks. That is a battle that is slowly changing, especially when we talk about the insurance and liability issues. Awareness is being raised and more units are starting to use them. As for how the tour permits get approved, I don't know. Maybe because our training records are so screwed up, there is no way to tell who actually has the BALOO training. Fortunately this to is getting better.

In reference to council wide training. Because of the geographic size of the council, it's been challenging to get things organized on that level in the past. Basically it's been every district for themselves. And with our professional and volunteer leadership challenges on the council level, well you can imagine. Again new SE, new VP Training, and Woodbadge on a regular basis have helped to change things around.

I've actually completed the old Cub Scout Basic Leader Training way back when, but I haven't any of the CS Outdoor training. Plus like all things it's use it or lose it. Since I've been dealing mostly on the scout side of things, the CS side is a weakness for me. I was forntuante that I had a great CS trainer who handled NLE and leader specific. I am actually planning to help out with some NLE and leader specific courses to refresh my skills.

As for undergoing the training before teaching it unless needed, I understand that one, and that's why I intitially declined the training positon, I haven't done all of the training, nor have I completed Woodbadge. But there was no one to do it and I got Shanghied into doing it by my old boss, district chairman, and district commissioner. Unless we can get a few service area or council level courses going, it's going to fall back on the districts. And with the lack of a CS trainer at the moment, "I have a bad feeling about this."

Bob White,

No, It wasn't that I wasn't interested in those courses. It was that everytime I tried to get one organized, I had trouble getting leaders to attend as either trainers or students. I had to pull teeth as it were to get an IOLS done, and then only 3 people showed up for the course. Trust me I believe every Scout deserves a trained leader.

In a predominatly rural area where most people go hunting and fishing on a regular basis, few of the leaders think they really need to go through the training. Plus we have alot of oldtimers, average Scout leader tenure in the district is approximately 12 years with half of the troops having at least one Woodbadger in the unit, if not more. Alot of the folks ask, "Well why do I need training to do the things we already do and that I learned from XYZ leader?"

Another problem that was encountered was that there was no guidance from council on training. For most of the 2 years I was training chair, there was no active council training VP. He was a paper VP. There was no real coordination among the districts to organize joint training opportunities, and in my case no active DE to help get information, only a DD who were filling in until a replacement came. By the time I saw him, the other districts he covered had already had their events.

Fortunately some of the problems are gone. We have a very active training VP who holds regular meetings and coordinates with the districts. Because we have started hosting Woodbadge on a regular basis, we now have several district trainers who have more contact with the other districts as well. We've had two or three joint training sessions with other districts since I changed positions to chap. adv. We still have our problems, i.e. lack of a DE, just losing our head CS trainer, and the "why" attitude, but the situation has improved.

I guess my question now is this: does IOLS cover enough of the BALOO and OWL information that can I help out on the courses as a staff member or do I need go through them as a participant before helping out? I've never seen either the BALOO or OWLS syllabi so I cannot compare it to IOLS. And with no CS trainer at bat, I think I will be apporached in the near future to help with the CS side of things when my son joins CS next year.

In addition to tracking it yourself with whatever software you choose. I recommend contacting your council and getting a copy of your record from them. You maybe surprised.

Can anyone please tell me what the differences are between the Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), the Webelos Leader Outdoor training, and Intro to Outdoor Leadership Skills? This is going to sound ridiculous, but I never had enough interest in the CS side of training, to get the two CS courses done when I was training chair. Further I cannot recall it being offered in the 4 districts comprising my service area. The only person I know to go through them actually went out of council to complete them.

Thanks

eagle 92