Eagle007

Packsaddle, when I look at it from that point of view it gives me a whole new perspective. My hat's off to you for shedding new light. It is unfortunate, though, that there are people in this world whom I have responded to with the ambulance in car collisions that the first thing they yell is "I'm gonna sue, I'm gonna sue!" The collision was witnessed by multiple people all saying, including the person struck, that it was a bump (stopped car where the driver slipped off of the brake pedal) from behind. Everyone was in seatbelts with no vehicles damaged. When we arrive on scene the party immediately falls out of the car holding their necks going into a seizure trying to get the devil out. They are treated like any other person involved in a collision and immobilized to the fullest, assessed and taken to the ER for evaluation and treatment. And everyone's auto insurance premiums continue to rise.

Basementdweller, your achievements are to be highly commended. Only you can answer your own question of the value or worth that you place on the program with all of its headaches. Everyone needs to vent and get things off of their chest sometimes or they will have a coronary. Maybe, as suggested previously, the good ole cuppa coffee with all parties involved as individuals, in certain cases, and as groups, in others, is what is called for so that everyone can be on the same page and stay on the same page. Excellent communication among all parties is the key. Asking for help is a good thing.

My intent was to be over the top in my comments with the waiver of liability/permission slips and list of risks. The list of risks would be endless. My point is that people need to take personal responsiblility. People are going to sue people whether it's warranted or not and lawyers are going to be there to represent both parties.

In regards to the McDonald's situation I would say this. I take personal responsibility when eating and drinking. If food is supposed to be hot, I "expect" it to be hot. If a drink is supposed to be hot, I "expect" it to be scalding hot. I have been taught as a child to blow on my hot food to cool it down and sip on my hot drink so as not to burn the hair off my tongue. I take personal responsibility. If I take a hot beverage from Starbuck's, I ensure that the lid is properly sealed. I don't just take for granted that the employee did it correctly. I help them to help me to help them, if that makes any sense. I also use common sense in everything I do. For example, I don't put a cup of hot coffee or any other hot drink between my legs while driving. If I should have a brain fart and do something that stupid then I assume the responsibility should I spill it and burn myself. "I know that I would sue in a heart beat if that is what I needed to do to get the money my child needed for medical treatment." Wow! Really? "Not everyone sues to blame someone else." No? But it sure sounds like that is in the forefront of people's minds. Where in the world has personal responsibility gone? Does anyone not have the wherewithal to accept the fact that they mess up/are at fault and that it is foolish to try to blame someone else. In my opinion, clogging our civil system with unnecessary and frivolous lawsuits is one of the things that has our country is the bind that it is in. The mentality of "I don't like something so I think I'll sue" or "I need money (for whatever reason) so I think I'll sue" is so foreign to everything scouting is about. It keeps attorneys busy though. People really need to put their big boy/girl pants on and take responsiblity of and for themselves. This is not a personal attack but an observation and an opinion for what it's worth!

BP, along with what you said, I would give a written statement outlining a non-all inclusive list of risks associated with any event or outing that the scouts may participate in and have a waiver of liability signed by the parents and notarized; thereby, indemnifying and holding harmless the scouters, troop and BSA - a swim at your own risk type of deal. Schools do it all the time with activity/field trips. Would this stop any lawsuits, probably not. But I do believe that it would make parents more aware of the potential risks and liabilities associated with the events their scout is involved with and keep the monkey of preparation on the parent's/scout's back. My parents signed liability waivers for me all the time when I was a kid - school, church camp, scouts.

I agree with what Doc, Calico and resqman have said. Out in the field on hiking/camping trips, we may not have very much equipment to work with but recognizing signs and symptoms of illnesses and injuries (patient assessment)is a big part of taking care of the person. I'll use the case of the diabetic that Calico used. Unless one has knowledge of what to look for in a diabetic emergency, one would probably assume like the scoutmasters did that the scout had taken a good snootful of alcoholic beverage. In that situation, shouldn't the scoutmasters have had prior knowledge of the scout's medical history? I think I would be letting all parties involved know something that serious if it were my son. One of my EMS instructors always liked to add "a rapid infusion of diesel" as part of the patient's treatment, meaning, get to definitive care in the quickest and safest possible manner. Having said that it has been my experience that a great deal of 911 calls are not what would be considered "true emergencies." Most are just calls for the orange and white taxi (ambulance) to take them to the ER because they have the system figured out. The system abusers know they will be seen quicker if an ambulance brings them vs having family or friends bring them. After asking how much a ride would cost, I have actually had a person to tell me that they wouldn't be paying for the ambulance bill because the taxpayers who pay medicaid and medicare would be picking up the tab. There was nothing medically wrong with the person. What was wrong was that the person and its spouse didn't have a car and wanted a free ride to the hospital. (Sorry for the rant.) Also, as ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Knowledge is power. Let's be safe out there. I'm glad I'm not the only one who uses DRT.

When I was a scout, I knew exactly what my limitations were and how to and not to exceed them. I still do. I also have a great deal of confidence and faith in my troop's scouters, parents and scouts. If we are going to hamstring these people then why not put them in bubble wrap and let them play like they are in scouting? Better yet let's just keep them at home because we're too paranoid that something terrible may, not will, but may happen to them.

Another thing to think about is that if you don't constantly train, practice and/or use your medical skills in the field or hospital based setting you will lose those skills. Learning from a textbook is fine and dandy but constantly and continually applying what you learn in real life situations is altogether different.

Calico, I couldn't agree more. Continuing education is the key in the medical profession. I just completed well over 100 hours of continuing ed for EMS. And it will start over again April 1st. I also agree that scouts and scouters alike need to continue increasing their medical knowledge. The fact that National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians is upgrading EMT-Basic to Advanced EMT and EMT-Paramedic to Critical Care Paramedic says a lot about the need to continue learning new, advanced treatments.

The software looks awesome. With your permission, may I pass it on to dens/packs in my area, please?

I would have to agree with JMHawkins. There are so many times that the media outlet "edits" the parts that they want or don't want released to their viewers or readers. That's what gets viewer ratings and subscription sales up. There was a friend of mine that did an interview for a local newspaper some time back. When he read the published article he said that the writer/editor had botched the entire story.

Let's take turns lifting each other on sretchers into the backs of ambulances. I bet there would be a lot of peer pressure for each other to lose the extra spare tires. After working in EMS for several years, I automatically size people up when I walk into a room. Without trying to sound ugly, I think to myself, I would hate to have to pick that person up on a stretcher if they went down. I also look in the mirror when I have those thoughts. When the side rails on a stretcher won't lock in the upright position because you are too large, you might want to seriously re-evaluate the spare tire situation.

Hawkrod, I'll give Pack195 a generalized answer without attacking anyone on this forum and without having or asking for specifics. Use common sense, the proper authorities and the scouting chain of command. Hope this helps.

Welcome thunderbolt! I also had to find the definition for neo-luddite so I learned something today. These forums are wealth of information and I, for one, am very thankful to be able to have access to them and participate.

No offense to the military, paramilitary or law enforcement agencies but BSA IS NOT one of those programs. I've been through one of the finest law enforcement academies around and was hammered with weight requirements this and weight requirements that. I never had a problem in foot pursuits; I was a speed runner not endurance one. I'm all for people being in shape and healthy. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can stand to lose some table muscle. But this is a c'mon man moment for BSA. I guarantee you that I can have four fingers pointing at me and point a thumb at a BSA National Head Honcho that wouldn't be able to meet these guidelines. I'm not bashing but rather making a point. I think this could possibly be the slimming down (no pun intended) of numbers for BSA if they don't do away with this chart as a hard and fast rule. Scouts and scouters alike will be sitting at home instead of going to events/campouts or they will be going on unofficial BSA outings. I see a definite problem with the later as they wouldn't be covered under insurance.

An EMT/Paramedic, D.O., M.D. and even a Truama Surgeon are very limited without their equipment. Having said that, our troop has several MDs that are scouters and I guarantee that they don't bring anything but their brains and maybe some pills on our trips. I bring my EMS jump kit on every outing I can attend but it has limitations. And we've had to have sunshine pumped in on some of the trips because they were so far from civilization. It doesn't matter what level of training you are at there will be limitations. You do the best you can with what you have. Field medicine comes with a price = limitations (such as time and equipment).

I have just experienced this issue with scout son who is needing a POR for Star. He wanted to tell me that he has tried and tried to get a POR but has be passed over by several boys who have waited right up until the age of 18 and second thoughts about earning Eagle. I was actually standing with my son when the SM and another scouter told him that there would be plenty of time for him to get a POR but that these other boys really needed it worse than he did because their time was about to expire. Although I understood where they were coming from, I thought that it was a poor excuse to give to any scout, not just mine. In my opinion those other Life scouts shouldn't expect younger scouts to roll over and give in on a POR just because "I'm about to age out." They should have thought about that way ahead of time. But you know what is said about hindsight. Now the flip side to that coin is that we are the largest troop in the area and there are tons of PORs to be had. Needless to say, scout son received a POR on his own after speaking with SPL. And I'm very proud of all of the scouts in our troop on their hard work.

BP, you must have hit enter before I did. Great minds think alike.

There is a lot more to this story that you are not telling us. Making accusations against people without proof can get one in a world of trouble to say the least.

I would love to have boys in our troop like sailingpj who are leading the way instead of sitting on their duffs expecting to be told how to do everything by the adults. I wouldn't take it as an insult rather it would make me want to be a fly on the wall even more to see how they are doing. May be this could be an inspiration to scouts and scouters alike to heavily encourage boys to be the leaders they need to be. Many, many years ago when I was a scout, our troop was nothing but boy led with only one adult - the SM. It was the largest troop in the area and it was boy led with the blessings of the parents and committee. If I were to have a troop to use as an example for what other troops should strive to be like it would be my old troop.

moose, Kudos to the trooper. It takes a special breed to do certain types of jobs including law enforcement, EMS, Firefighting and scouting, just to name a few.

moose, I don't know for sure but it sounds to me as if the trooper is working in an undercover capacity within the biker gangs. So if I were that trooper involved in current undercover work I would probably not sign up as a MBC. I would also not allow my son(s)to use him as such nor would I recommend my scouts to him. No offense to the trooper but there are way too many risk factors and unknowns involved for the kids to be completely safe in my opinion. You will more than likely never know if a law enforcment officer is working undercover but obviously someone in this situation did. I speak from experience in these matters and would hope that the trooper would use his best judgement when interacting with kids, if that makes sense.

sailingpj, I agree with the other two posters on the subject of adult cooperation. But I will also respectfully add that there are sometimes adults that are just absolutely and completely pains in the neck to deal with. This is true in life in general and you must find a way to come to a happy meeting of the minds, agree to disagree or go your separate ways if all else fails and no solution can be found. I would reserve going of separate ways as a last resort deal breaker. There is usually a happy medium somewhere in the clouds.

Yes, I agree. It looks as if several events including summer camps will not take place in my area because of the adult leaders exceeding the height to weight requirements; therefore, no two deep leadership will be available. No leadership at all will be available that I can think of for that matter. I think this is very ignorant.

I saw the recommended and allowable weights but I was reading in Men's Health Magazine last night that people who run marathons and do excessive training are actually more likely to have heart conditions that those that don't because of the stress. I've also heard of several people in my area that had little fat according to their BMI, exercised daily and ate right and died from heart attacks. We all want to do what is right for our bodies if not in theory anyway, but isn't it ironic, don't ya think. By the way, I think that is a song by Alanis Morissette.