DugNevius

No,Barry, NJ. I dont see why a mentally challanged youth could not survive in our troop. No i do not think we are a Dug Factory at all. I have not set any standards rather continue to live and lead by the standards that have been a part of our program for decades. I guess you and I disagree on what an Eagle scout is. I am not saying Eagle scouts are flawless, they are human as anyone, but repecting others and leading example are a big part of what our troop believes an Eagle should be. A scout that is never on time is not doing either and not living the scout law. A boy can be in scouts and never be accountable, respectable, motivated, etc... Thats fine. He can still benifit from the program, go on the trips and activities, but hes not an eagle. An eagle is something more. These arent abilities like singing or sculpting, they are life skills that every boy can learn, if they so chose to. Every boy has the potential to be an Eagle, but not every boy will be one.

Fgoodwin, i dont presume to know who made or distributed that, if it were GLSEN or NAMBLA or the Boston Red Sox, and it seems, going by the Boston Herald article, no one realy does. Therefore, i think i would need a bit more information before i so quickly criminalized an expansive group of millions because of the actions of a few unknown. hacimsaalk12, im going to assume you have never been around many gay men. The ones i know are constantly around girls and are much better with girls then many strait guys i know.

Well Barry thats a simple answer for me. The second requirment of the Rank of Eagle is Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. One component of the scout law is to be Curtious. By a scout being constantly late he is not being respectful of other peoples time and therefore not being very curtious. He also is failing to lead by example. One guy my age had a week to go before his 18th birthday. He had only Communications and Personal Management to go. He made an appointment with the SM who was the meritbadge counselor as well. He showed up late by 10 minutes. The SM sent him right home and would not scheduale another until he got an apology. At first my friend was so angry he was too proud to apologize and refused to do so. My SM was perfectly content letting him go without getting eagle. However, my friend, when he calmed down, realized his error, swallowed his pride in order to be accountable and made the phone call. Years later he still shares this story with the scouts and feels no resentment, rather he holds the boys to the same standard he was held to, and feels right for doing so.

Oh please. Why is it that you can take a minority that is to the extreme and use it to represent a larger group? Your example is no different then mine. It would be no different if i used Catholic priests that molest alter boys as an example of why all catholic priests are evil. Your "Goodwin's Law" reply is a joke. Your argument using Nambla or that group is known as a fallacy of weak induction, specifically Hasty Generalization. It is invalid. As invalid as saying white people hate minorites and Priests are child abusers. Come up with something better.

haha well then, Fgoodwin, im sure that you are aware that Panzerfaust records, a Neo Nazi record label from minn tried to dostribute CDs of Racist and anti-semetic material in school. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/hatecds.htm I guess this is evidence that mainstream Caucasians are anti-semetic and hate minorities.

one thing our troop does that ive talked about here is a troop olympics. The scouts compete as individuals as well as by patrol. Ten events in each catagory. Some of the things we do are cooking contestes, relay races with back packs, lashing, jerry jug relays, tarp set up and other scouting skills. The winners go up on a trophey. At weekly meetings we try to set aside time for games. Dodgeball, basketball, races, manhunt... This can be done by patrol. Each patrol has seperate equipment, tents, tarps, pots, stoves, etc that they use on trips and take care of. On trips patrols always cook seperate meals and sleep in seperate areas. I remember when i was a PL we would always try to camp as far away from the others as possible. On the trail we always hike by patrols. During meetings they always fall in by patrol, go through uniform inspection by patrol, sit by patrol with their patrol flag and have seperate patrol meetings. This summer we are going to philmont and a side grand canyon trip. This is done in 4 crews. We meet every weekend at 6:45 am to do some running. We stretch by crews, run by crews and compete in races and then a long game of Ultamite frisbee by crews. This weekend we are doing a hike and each crew is taking a different route, after we get dropped off we wont see each other. The goals of al this is to form crew unison and identity and its working, each crew has its own identity. One has named itself the "Diesel" crew while also dubbing the other crew "JV". During the Frisbee games when one crew scores they heckle the other and jump around cheering, and this only fires up ther other to come back stronger.

no, not at all. Sorry. It just so happens that every one of the Eagles of the past 12 years has done at least one, some two. By no meanis is it a requirment. High adventure trips are something in our program that we try to incorporate enough so that every scout has the chance to go on at least one if not two if he were so inclined. sorry for any confusion.

6. Great fashion sense. haha

Hi Barry, I enjoy discussing things like this with you. About the "Traits of an Eagle" ive been talking about, Accountability, Initiative, Organization, Punctuality, Creativity, Self Reliance, Leading By Example, Focus, Assertiveness, Patience, Reliability, Patience and Humor- None of these are literally part of the Scout Oath and Law but I, the other adult leaders past and present of our troop all feel and felt they were vital characteristics of an Eagle scout. Do you feel any of these are not important and why? Do you feel any of these are not achievable by every youth and why? Ill answer my own questions. Each one is vital to the core of what the rank of Eagle should represent to the world. If a youth is not any of these at all, he is not an eagle at heart. A youth can earn every merit badge and tie every knot and get through 16 months of leadership and not have a shred of Patience, or initiative, or Accountability, etc... On paper he has done what it takes to get eagle but in his heart and mind, where it matters most, hes has not. After all, its more important in the long run, that an Eagle, a boy built to lead others, is accountable rather then he can tie a Bowline. Each one of these can be achieved by any youth. Its not to harsh to expect punctuality or initiative or focus Im not asking too much. It just takes time. 3 years is not enough time. Anyone can be all these things and I dont feel it turns kids into clones. I am not the same as my scoutmaster at all, hes a Conservative Reganite, and I of course am far from. We have all kinds of Eagles in our troop, hippies, jocks, scholars, all vastly different, but one thing we all have in common is we all became Eagles through the program, through the same set of standards and therefore possess the "traits" to individual degrees. This uniformity coupled with the diversity of our personalities lends for an interesting but close group. After an Eagle court of Honor where many of the Eagle Alumni return, we all go out to a local bar, have a few beers, tell a few stories and laugh at a few bad jokes. Last summer we ended up going back to my old SMs house and making it an all nighter. In life we are all different, with different lifestyles, pursuits and accomplishments, but scouting has made us a Band of Brothers; a fraternity. Its not arrogance, its pride. The path to eagle made us who we are, even if we were different to begin with we have one thing in common, that we got trough something that was not easy, 21 merit badges, 16 months or more leadership, an Eagle project, at least one High adventure trip and a standard of character that was set high. I love this stuff too.

Oh come on Fgoodwin, what percent of homosexuals are either members of NAMBLA or agree with them? No more then the percent of heterosexuals who either partake in or fantasize about having sex with young girls. Also, there are PLENTY of teachers, coaches, babysitters and parents that have abused children of the opposite sex, in fact, just last week here in NYC 2 or 3 teachers were busted for engaging in sexual relationships with students and were pregnant, from the same school district. To use NAMBLA as a representative group would be like saying NYC public school teachers were rapists and pedophiles. But EVEN SO, whether a heterosexual male, a homosexual male or a member of NAMBLA, adults dont sleep shower or allow themselves to be alone with the youth. The purpose for this is for the protection of Adults against fraudulent complaints of abuse and to protect the youth from abuse. When enforced a homosexual, whether he was part of the distinct minority of homosexuals that like young boys or NOT, would not have the chance to abuse, rendering CMs points moot.

Cubmaster: Interesting comments. "I've always seen this issue this way: I wouldn't let a heterosexual male take my daughter camping (youth protection rules aside for the moment) because he is naturally attracted to females. I would also not allow a homosexual male to take my son camping because he is naturally (that is what I think anyway) attracted to other males. Neither scenario to me is appropriate because of the sexual attraction issue. Just remove the temptation and keep everyone safe" But it raises a few questions. First, if you are in the company of a young girl 10-17 are you unable to not have sex with her or are you uncontrolably forced to have sex with her givin the chance? If no, then why do you assume that homosexuals can not resist and would jump on the chance? If Yes, then... well, you know the whole slew of issues there. Second, do you allow you children to be taught in school by a teacher of the opposite sex, or coached for a sport by a coach of the opposite sex, babysat by a babysitter of the opposite sex or play at the home of a single parent of the opposite sex? If you say yes one could say you are being a bit hypocritical. If you say no one could say you are being a bit paranoid. You are aware that all these senarios are possibilities of sexual abuse and have been in the past. A child is as likely to be sexually abused by heterosexuals as he or she is by homosexuals and with the BSA YP in effect, MORE likely in the above mentioned senarios then on a camping trip. So, you cant really put aside the Youth Protection progam and then make a case against homosexuals on BSA camping trips, because, going along with the guidlines, adults, whether hetero or homo, dont sleep or shower or go off alone at any time with the youth. Therefore, the YP really does make your premises moot, dont they?

well dan, i would also recommend (but not essential) a small notebook and pen, for a journal and any other use including emergency. Its neat to sit down years later and read your philmont journal. Also, im bringing a very small roll of ducttape, the last 10 feet of a roll, in case a quick fix is needed. I would also swtich your 3/4 sleeping pad with a Crazy Creek chair, so that you still get the pad under you at night but you also have a great chair to lounge around the campsite in. Lastly, instead of the pants take some rainpants or waterproof pants, that way yu have a 2-in-1. When it rains yur dry and when its cool your warm.

for once, i have to say, I agree with Bob white here.

This is one reason why reforming patrols every so often is benificial. In doing so it ensures that each patrol has an equal amount of "core" scouts, those that have experience and spirit and are at the scout events. When i say reforming patrols i dont mean at the campouts but every 6 months have elections and form patrols. Ill sound like Bob white here: The adults need training. Im assuming this is a small troop so there should only be about 2-3 patrols, patrols should be around 7-8 scouts deep, not much more or less. Then, get some competition in there. On a campout hold a cooking contest. During a meeting play some games. At the end of the year there should be some awards, Patrol of the Year, Patrol leader of the year, that sort. I remember feeling awesome when i got my name up under PL of the Year under 60 other names that came before me.

sounds like its the father earning the ranks, to me.

Snake: how many times must it be pointed out that there is a difference between homosexuality and pedophilia? Pedophiles are both homo and heterosexual. Quit using false premises. also, in the OT, when some children call a prophet "Baldy" two bears are sent by god to kill them all. Are yu saying Homosexuals should be killed? Prairie: I think its pretty clear that religion is the main driving force behind scouters here on why homosexuals are not allowed in the BSA. It may therefore be induced that if the majorty of anti-homosexual scouters here are so because of religious reasons, therefore the higher up decision-makers in Texas would also be so inclined. Trevorum: Well good list!

what exactly are they doing? a 12 day hike in philmont, a day long canoe trip, a 8 hour egale project? care to narrow it down?

Well, Barry im going to disagree with you. A scout does not advance if he doesnt meet the requirements. If a scout does not meet the responsibilities of an elected position he did not complete the requirement. Leadership, or "POR" cant be mailed in. They should know before hand what duties each position entails and they should be expected to maintain them. One major part of leadership, in life, and in scouting, is to lead by example. If a scout in a position such as Patrol leader isnt doing so, he isnt leading. If he is not leading hes not meeting his responsibilities. A scout in the scenario I made did not, by any stretch, meet his responsibilities. You are correct when you say we need to guide our boys when they are in leadership positions. This means we inform them of what they need to do, advice on how best to do it and then evaluate the job they have done. Not much more then that. Any much more, we are doing their job for them. For instance, advancement. A patrol leader needs to advance the boys in his patrol, by teaching them the skills they need for the lower ranks. He can do this during the weekly meetings but also at a monthly patrol meeting that he puts together. The SPL can try to motivate him to do so, by asking him if hes put together any patrol meetings and keeping track of rank advancement, but he can not force the PL to do anything and if he is arranging a Patrol meeting, or teaching scouts, hes doing the PL's job. I think we can all agree, kids dont always do what needs to be done, if their 12 or if their 17. No PL is every perfect, but sometimes a PL here or there just isnt up to the task. I dont think a SM has to put an age limit, or to actually say to a scout hes not ready. The program can do that. Leadership (POR) does that. In a free election program the scouts vote for the PLs and SPL. We can debate whether or not patrols should be together forever or if they should be rearranged, but thats not all that important, but if the Troop holds democratic elections, where candidates run against each other for the positions and scouts vote based on qualifications such as past experience, scout skills, scout spirit and character (accountability, initiative, creativity, fairness- all parts of leadership character and scouts ARE aware of these qualities!) then the scouts are forced to develop these and establish themselves as qualified. Until they do, their peers dont elect them to lead. Most often, scouts that dont have character initially have to wait a while to get elected. Kids mature at different ages. This, coupled with strong competition for few positions does two things, A)it pushes the age of Eagle candidates up because of the time needed to establish ability to lead and B) provides that for the majority of the time those that DO get elected will be able to handle the position. For instance, in our troop we have 4 scout patrols and one senior patrol. At our last election 11 scouts ran for 4 spots. Only the four who most established themselves as leaders got the position. One patrol leader is a sophomore. Until this September he was a troubled scout who was stuck at 1st class because of his attitude towards others prevented him from ever winning an election. Over the summer something clicked, he got his head on and has been a model scout. Therefore he won an election last January. As I said, unless a troop is new, I dont see how an 11 year old can be a patrol leader, if hes only had one summer at camp and a dozen or fewer trips under his belt. If every lad in his troop is 11 or younger then he would be as qualified as any, but in a troop that has been around for a while he simply doesnt have the experience to hold the position. Of course, live shows that there is always an exception to any rule, but ive never encountered any scout in our troop 11 or 12 ready for the job. Our PL tend to be around 8th-9th graders. Character is established simply by example. Lead By example should be the credo of any leader. While their are specific requirements on paper, when I think of an eagle scout I dont think of 21 merit badges and an Eagle Project, I think of a man who is accountable, always on time, organized, takes initiative, creative, patient, focused, assertive and fair. None of these things are specifically under the guidelines of the Scout oath and Law, and a youth can complete every requirement in the book and never have any of these traits, but a true Eagle does. Every Eagle from our troop that I ever encountered was all of these things. That tells me that the standard is not too high to achieve and yet high enough to hold to all those who seek to join them. I remember, as a scout, I was conditioned by my scoutmaster that if you were right on time you were late. If, as a PL I was told to be at, say a meeting at 7pm, I had better be in the door at least 5 minutes early. If I was 10 minutes early to anything, I was still there after him and the other eagle ASMs. My friend was going for a merit badge- Citizenship of something, and was to be there at 6:30. He showed up at 6:35. He was sent home. The next time, a week later, he was there at 6:20. If a 1st class scout forgot something, like rain gear, the older scouts would say "Be prepared" and the scout would get wet. Now if a Life scout forgot raingear... oh boy. According to the official requirements it does not state anywhere that a scout must be punctual. That said I dont see how any scout can get eagle and not be. They will be conditioned to be, as all the other mentioned qualities. When I hold a meeting with a scout for a merit badge, scoutmaster conference of greenbar (PLC) and hes late he gets sent home and it doesnt get done. When I see lack of accountability in a scout I call him on it. the other Scoutmasters and I expect a level of maturity for Eagle scouts that only come with conditioning. Conditioning takes time. I dont think, excluding a very small minority, that scouts can get there in 3 years.

off the bat, ill say, all things should be done by patrols. Camping, meetings, special outings, games... all done with a seperation of patrols lead by the patrol leaders with an SPL overseeing and advising. They eat together, sit together while watching a demo, play games as a team, hike as a crew, meet during patrol meetins sperate from the rest. If a troop is constantly re-arranging the boys to form patrols, then the patrol method isnt being used and their is no youth leadership. If there are X boys on the roster and only 1/2X show up regularly the troop needs to downside the amount of patrols its using. When a solid patrol method is established, the troop can go forward and generate healthy competition between the patrols, from cook-offs to foot races, skills testing or basketball.

simmer down Bob, i wasnt aware this was a scout.

yes, im not sure how this is a YP issue.

I dont put an age limit. There is no need. The minimum leadership time for a scout to reach eagle is 3 terms of 6 months or more. thats 1.5 years. A scout at 13 would have to have begun his leadership time at 11.5 years old. That means he began his leadership after a year or less. Barring a new or very young troop, this seems to be a bit unrealistic, having a 11 and a half year old taking on the duties of a Patrol leader, OA rep, Quartermaster and so on. How can a boy that young do so? He would have to be pretty exceptional, if you ask me.

Oh, im all for letting them fail. If they dont have rain gear they get wet. If they forget the food they dont eat. But there is a difference between disorginization and being lazy.

first let me ask you a question. Lets say a 1st class scout needs only 6 months leadership. He is elected a patrol leader. During these six months he shows up late, doesnt advance scouts in his patrol, doesnt hold patrol meetings, doesnt lead by example, is poorly orginized at trips and is disruptive during meetings. After 6 months his term is over. Does he advance? to answer your question, the final judge is the members of the BOR.

and that scout had the character and maturity of an eagle scout at the level of the eagles past, then he would get the conference. Its never happened. It could, but that scout would have to be pretty special to get the leadership time and all the stuff done by 13 with the program we have.