dsteele

A word to the wise from a guy who's filed several National Tour Permits:

1) They are approved by your Region, not by your local council. You need to file them well in advance. The time required is on the form.

2) Make sure every blank is filled out. Even if the answer is N/A -- or someone will question it. I've heard of questions coming back to the local council as "When Troop XYZ arrives at their midpoint destination, where will they be staying?" i.e. a church, park, etc.

3) Make sure your itinerary does not involve more than 12 (or whatever the form says, I forget) hours of continuous travel or a distance of over 500 miles in a day.

4) If in doubt, have someone in your council office review the National Tour permit before you actually file it. Much like letting a teacher look over a draft of an important paper, this can save you headaches later on.

5) this one just from old Unc -- have fun on the trek!

Unc.

"And Ed is genuinely stupid."

Well, I guess I set myself up for that one. No one can expect you to behave in a manner that meets the Scout Law.

Unc.

Merlyn:

I've been reading an interesting series in our local paper about Head Start -- and some of their umbrella organizations being run through churches. Why aren't your sights set on them?

BTW -- I think insulting Ed's intelligence as being beneath you. Ed speaks plainly and directly. This in no way means he's unintelligent. I find your condescending tone disappointing.

Your intelligence is obvious. You are an intelligent individual. However, that does not mean that those who disagree with you are not also intelligent.

From what I've seen in life, the number one error of intelligent people is that they think they are more intelligent than others.

Unc.

Anarchist:

Thanks for your reply. I had hoped I was being too thin skinned. I agree with your post addressed to me.

Sorry I didn't get back to you last evening. By the time I got home from our council dinner, I was too tired to even check.

Thanks.

Unc.

Korea:

As usual, an excellent, even-tempered post. You conveyed everything I typed last night, only yours was done in a scout-like manner. The re-reading I did of the post I wrote on this topic caused me to hit the "back" button and not say anything.

Thank you.

Unc.

I'm trying to not get my hackles up. I hope anarchist's comments weren't pointed in my direction:

"ahh the problems of young eagles...

Love the term deathbed eagles!

would rather have active, 17 year old 'death bed' heading scouts in our program tah watch the 'ticket puncher', 'paper eagle' blow through the program and leave at 141/2... "

Ticket puncher -- okay, I can live with that. I certainly did aim to achieve each rank according to my personal time-table . . . which happened to coincide with the time required more than the actual work.

Paper Eagle -- that one bothers me. Not because it's true (it isn't,) but because there is absolutely no way anyone could know or say that about a person unless they knew him personally. You don't know me. As a secondary point, if you do know a "paper Eagle" and do/say nothing about it, don't you share the guilt?

Now, as to leaving the program ... I never did.

What I meant by my post was simply this -- I have observed several new posters here say that they left Scouting at some point in time and are getting re-involved now that they have sons in the program. They are often new Assistant leaders, Unit leaders, etc.

Contributions to Scouting are not limited to the Troop. An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout regardless of his age at the time of the Board of Review.

Which is more valuable to Scouting? The young man who earns Eagle at 16 (I won't even get started on the "perfect age" thing) who continues to show up to weekly meetings and attend troop outings . . . and is heard from no more once he turns 18?

Or the 16 year old Eagle Scout who goes on to other things, but once he turns 30 or so and is asked, writes a check to his council Friends of Scouting for support of one Scout every year until he retires at age 65?

There's no right answer to that question -- we need both.

Unc.

I think I have a perspective that's a little different from what I've seen so far in this thread.

I've mentioned that I was a young eagle. I did stay active with my troop, but there wasn't much left to do. The OA and being a member (briefly) of an Indian Dance Explorer Post captured more of my attention.

I really don't blame a young man who has earned Eagle for tapering off his activities with the troop. I view Eagle Scouts as a time capsule -- especially when you consider the stuff already mentioned -- the charge, the oath, the obligation to give back -- which is thoroughly indoctrinated if we've done our jobs correctly.

That stuff, like the infusion of the Scout Oath and Law is much like my 401 (K). I know its there, I know it's going to pay off . . . and I know it's going to take a while before I see it.

Wait until that Eagle gets to be about 30 years old and has a family before judging whether he's actually "left" scouting or not.

If it appears at that time that he has left, it's time to ask him to begin to repay the debt.

Unc.

The ACLU through the then President of the American Atheist Association has already tried suing the PTA for sponsoring a Cub Scout Pack. It lost in either 1997 or 1998.

Unc.

jteanmj:

Don't let Eamonn fool you. He's actually a chive farmer from Rock Island, Illinois!

Unc.

tee-hee

Just to play the devil's advocate for a moment . . . .

Just kidding! Does anyone think there's a good way to follow that lead sentence in this thread and make it out alive> (That was a sarcastic comment, I don't want and answer.)

Actually, the finest District Chairman I ever worked with was a female. I fail to see how sexism is of a benefit to the young men we're teaching.

Unc.

Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I think the number one reason people don't take training is that they feel they don't need it.

How we change that incorrect perception is a matter of another topic.

Unc.

Ask any merit badge counselor for American Labor or union member why it's important that the BSA uniform be made by American Labor in the good old USA.

I'd watch out for the crow bar if you ask in the incorrect way.

Unc.

Yes, I do have the cotton pants. They are a dress cut, with double welt pockets, a waist with no elastic, and dress pant pockets in the front. There are no side pockets.

They wrinkle easily, although they look sharp when pressed until you sit down. In the out of doors, they are very much like the pants I wore in the 1970's. They dry relatively quickly, but forget about keeping the crease.

I prefer the poly-wool pants. They are the same cut as the cotton pants and are tough to wrinkle unless you do it on purpose. They're not ideal for outdoor use -- they are labeled dry clean only.

Just to point out a bit of trivia:

The BSA does have a dress uniform. It's for adults and involves a blue blazer (there's an official one) with a BSA tie, white shirt and gray (there are official) slacks or skirt worn with a universal emblem.

Most people associate the dress uniform with professionals or executive board members, but they are not restricted to that. It's just that few other than the aforementioned will buy them.

Unc.

Dug:

You said, "Lastly, we are not of the mind that a 14 year old IS quite ready for eagle. He simply lacks the experience. For us."

First of all, who is "we?"

Secondly, the age is not something you're allowed to factor in the equation. The candidate has met the requirements or he has not.

It appears to me that you're looking for a battle over your troop's ways. I don't have the proximity or the time to engage in a sought battle. I just ask the questions to ask the questions.

Unc.

No. You're not off in your thinking.

It's up to the troop/pack to offer the boys opportunities to advance, but it's up to the boy to take advantage of the opportunity.

It's okay for the troop leadership (the youth who planned a camp out) to say, "Today we're going to take a nature hike. If you'd like some help identifying the plants you need for your badge, we're happy to help." It's then up to the Scout to decide he wants to complete the requirement. If the other boys decide to just go for a walk in the woods and don't identify the plants . . . they've made their choice.

Unc.

Let's start here. This reflects a problem I've seen in a lot of units over a long period of time and usually results in a dead unit after a while . . .

"Yes I have a committee on paper, I have my CR, CC, etc but they are always too busy to take care of anything. My CO is a school PTO, I knew going in that I would not be able to depend on them for anything." t487Scouter

It sounds to me like you pick up the ball when it gets dropped. This starts out innocently enough, but sooner or later, people come to expect that you'll pick up the ball.

I think the better answer is to "pester" (I can't think of a better way to say it) the CR into doing the job or resigning. Same with the CC. Ask them when they want to hold the next committee meeting. Then remind them a week prior to it. No matter what excuse they use, reschedule, conflict, cancel, etc. do not offer to run the meeting for them. This will lead to the abdication of the responsibility, if not the title.

If they know that their job is to do X and that X is important . . . but if they don't do it, you will . . . guess what? They'll probably let you do it.

You may be falling victim to the syndrome. I suggest you turn the table a little at a time. In other words, let them know that X is their job, X is important, and you're not going to do it.

I'm not suggesting you let the troop fail. However, I am reminded of a story. Once, when I was Scoutmaster, my troop was camping in a cabin (this was December in Michigan) and the cabin was heated only by a wood burning stove. In the wee hours of the morning, the fire all but dead, it got very cold in the little cabin. I lay awake on my cot knowing I could restart the fire.

I also hoped one of the Scouts or other leaders would get colder faster than me and re-start the fire.

Could I have gotten up and re-start the fire myself? Sure! Fortunately, it didn't come to that. One of the boys, who must have noticed that I was awake, said, "I'm cold Mr. Guinea."

"So what's stopping you from firing up the stove?" I asked.

He couldn't answer, so he lit the fire again.

Warmth at last.

Unc.

Thanks for the kind words, Eamonn.

Cookie:

Your boys are graduating into Scouting now. I would caution you not to worry at this point about when or if they make Eagle.

My advice echos many others in this thread -- don't push them, but don't hold them back either.

Scouts advance at their own pace. Sometimes that pace is a full-out trott on the part of the Scout. Sometimes it's an aimless wandering.

No matter what attempt is made to cheat the system, only one person actually decides who will earn the Eagle rank -- the Scout himself.

As I've seen over many years, a Scout can't be pulled, pushed, prodded, nudged, or dragged to earning the rank of Eagle. I once met a man who bought his 16 year old son a new car, put it up on blocks and told his son he could have the car when he earned his Eagle. The kid never earned it.

The adult role is to coach, guide, enable, assist with resources (maybe.) The role of the Scout is to earn it if he so chooses.

When I speak to a group of first year Scouts, I ask them if they know the one single thing it takes to make the Eagle Rank. The answers are usually interesting, but the one I'm looking for is "You have to want it and do it."

Just my idle thoughts . . .

Unc.

My Kentucky Eagle Friend,

I don't disagree that the adult needs to be involved in the coaching. However, I believe that the coaching from the adult needs to be a brief introduction of his/her opinion.

After that, "use the force, Luke." comes into play. The young man must choose for himself. His own gut is sufficiently devloped to tell him whether the troop is a good fit or not. If not, if he doesn't quit the program, he can probably scrape up the $1.00 to transfer to a different troop . . .

Unc.

Ask all the questions of the potential troop that you want to, take a look at their calendar and examine all the variables presented here.

But please, please, for the boys' sake, don't ever forget who makes the decision of which troop to join and who has to live with the results.

It isn't you.

It's the Scout.

He may be only 11 years old, but he is an accomplished consumer. He will make his choice. Force his hand and we may lose him altogether.

Unc.

Hunt:

I have no trouble at all with your desire to see the pants changed. I also applaud your desire to be in full uniform.

In answer to your question -- I think Scouts and Scouters should wear only official uniform pants to be considered in uniform. This is for one simple, undeniable reason . . . it's the right thing to do.

I'll admit I was a black and white Scout -- it's either right or it isn't. The pants are either official or they are not. Heck, I feel guilty if I wear black socks with my uniform pants because they should be official socks if I want to say I'm in uniform.

I wear the uniform because it is a uniform. I'd hesitate a bit if it were pink and involved tights, but a uniform is a uniform.

Unc.

Centered on the right pocket is correct. It is a temporary patch. Temporary is not defined by the BSA . . . so it's not unusual to have it there as long as you like. I believe the rockers go through 2008

Unc.

I wear the official uniform -- shirt, pants, and socks.

The pants I wear cost a bit more than the off the rack pants, but they are 100% official. I wear either the 100% cotton or the poly/wool uniform pants.

I wear them because:

1) there is no elastic in the waist.

2) there are no outside pockets

3) the fabric is of a much higher quality

4) there are double-welt pockets on the back.

5) they are cut the same as dress pants.

Unc.

Exactly how many companies ARE there that are capable of running millions of criminal background checks on a national level?

What choices did the BSA have?

Would you rather there were no criminal background checks done?

Unc.

There are seveal things in your post that merit further discussion. I'll attempt to address the one that hits close to home for me.

There is no minimum age for someone to earn Eagle and it is not within the rules to create one. Yes, it is possible for a Scout to earn the rank within 2-3 years. This is rare, but it does happen and you can't stop it.

In 1979, when I earned my Eagle just shy of my 14th birthday, the requirements were different. At that point in time, there WERE time requirements between all ranks. This could have been an attempt to prevent young Eagle Scouts.

At the time I earned Eagle, you had to be a Scout for 1 month before you could earn Tenderfoot, Tenderfoot for 2 months, Second Class for 3 months . . . and then 4 months before Star, 6 before Life and 5 before Eagle.

In 1988, the program changed and there were no minimum tenure requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class or First Class. Indeed, it's even possible to work on all three of the first three ranks simlutaneously!

I remember when the change came out that there was much rending of cloth and fear that the change would bring about droves of young Eagle Scouts. It didn't happen.

I don't have a copy in front of me, but if you're looking for the rules regarding Eagle Boards of Review, they can be found, officially, in the Advancement Committee Proceedures manual available for sale at your Scout Shop.

Unc.

Actually, the questions on the adult application did not appear until 1988. Prior to that the adult application was very similar to the youth application.

Sorry to interrupt the discussion, please continue.

Unc.