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What is "Active" in Troop vs. Crew for Eagle Requirement?

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  • What is "Active" in Troop vs. Crew for Eagle Requirement?

    Greeings, All;

    I'm CC for both our Troop and Crew and a serious question has arisen about the definition of "active in the Troop" Eagle rank requirement relative to a Scout's activity in the Crew.

    What has happened is that the Crew members (who are all Star and Life) have essentially stopped attending any Troop meetings or outings. My position is that the Scout Handbook requires "...active in the Troop..."; nothing is mentioned about the Crew and that is where the requirement must be met. The Crew is supposed to provide a higher program level to keep our guys active, not replace the guidance to the Troop the older Scouts could provide as the youth leaders.

    Our Troop manual clearly defines what 'active' is for us so I have an reference but now, one of the Eagle candidates who has been absent from the Troop but kind of active in the Crew, is ready for his BOR. (In this instance, because we haven't clearly communicated a policy, I'm inclined to let him move forward; I want to set the policy as soon as possible, though.)

    I welcome your opinions on this.

  • #2
    Welcome to the forums. We have had many discussions about this and we have many opinions . But I believe National has come out and defined "active" as "registered". If they are given credit for their Position of Responsibility (POR) without being "active", that's a failing of the unit leadership. What's in your "Troop Manual" doesn't matter. They will win on appeal.

    Comment


    • #3
      dave

      Greetings fellow Venturing leader. I have had six youth complete their Eagles in my crew over the years. If they are registered as crew members, active in crew activities, have held at least one Venturing Officer position they meet the test. If they were still in the troop then their SM would handle the Eagle, but National has allowed former boy scouts who are at least 1st Class to obtain their Eagle through the crew without being in a troop since the inception of Venturing.

      Comment


      • #4
        A Crew is a separately chartered BSA unit, not an extension of a Troop. If you want boys to be active in the Troop, form a high adventure/Venture PATROL within the Troop.

        A Scout who is 1st Class is not required to earn Eagle thru a Troop. He can continue his trail to Eagle thru his Crew membership.

        BSA's definition of "active" is very clear, and it trumps any other definition in your Troop's manual. If the Scout is still registered with your unit (on your Troop's charter) he is considered by BSA to be active in the unit.

        Comment


        • #5
          Are they on the troop's charter? Then they are active with the troop.

          Are they on the crew's charter? Then they are active with the crew?

          Are they on both charters? They they are active in both units.

          Then they are good to go for Eagle.

          If they are not on a charter, then they are ineligible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Everyone else answered the question. This is something that pops up every so often on on-line forums, but I want to point something out.

            "Our Troop manual clearly defines what 'active' is for us so I have an reference but now, one of the Eagle candidates who has been absent from the Troop but kind of active in the Crew, is ready for his BOR."

            Bit of advice.

            I understand that your troop wants to define active. Most organizations do. It typically paying dues, attending a minimum number of meetings & events.

            However, when push comes to shove, if a troop trying to impose any such definition of active, if the boy (or his parents) appeal to National, National will come back and say that being registred is all that is needed to be active. This HAS happened, and is almost always brought up when the topic of 'what is active?' is discussed on-line.

            Just saying.

            I would say that is sounds like this youth is active in the crew, so prehaps he should get his Eagle thru the crew and not the troop. that may avoid any issues amoung the leadership of these 2 units...

            Comment


            • #7
              Let him move forward, but through a gauntlet. The politics of "with the troop" or "with the crew" are smoke and mirrors to a boy this age. Avoid them.

              The neat thing about Venturing for a boy is attendance and positions of responsibilities becomes less relevant. The trade-off is that venturing is supposed to "bleed into" the other areas of a youth's life, enabling him/her to better contribute to church group, sports team, or boy scout or girl scout troop. Sometimes the boys jump on the "pluses" to avoid the "minuses". You can't regulate that, but thanks to boards of reviews, you can force it to come to a head.

              I've informed the Eagle candidates in my crew that they should be prepared to answer questions their troop committee may ask about their participation in venturing.

              In your case, define "kind of active in the Crew" by forcing the boy to reflect. If he's not an officer, which crew activity is he responsible for? What can his crew members count on him for? Is he serving either unit in a way beffitting of an Eagle scout? How? How has his sevice as a Venturer benefitted the troop?

              I've found that boys who are spending less time with the troop are also not as involved in the crew. If that is the case, then at scoutmaster conferences (which in our troop are held with the ASMs and SM for Eagle candidates), I ask the question "What good have you been doing in the world of late?"

              All of these are fair game, and I strongly encourage the board of review to ask questions like these. Comparing attendance statistics just doesn't get you anywhere.

              For the other slackers in the troop, keep in mind that there's a difference between "essentially stopped attending" and "stopped attending". Don't recharter a boy who doesn't show up at a single meeting -- only collect dues at meetings. Your SM (or SPL and PLC, if your boy leadership is fully functional) should be removing any boy from a POR if he has done nothing in that position for two months, period. If he wants a POR to make rank, HE MUST DO THE WORK.

              Your crew, if it as tightly integrated as you say it is, should also not countenance absentee officers. My crew actively recruits outside the troop, so holding an officer position is not a slam-dunk. The boys in the troop must run against young men and women not in a troop. They can ask for an activity chair position, but it only means something if the activity gets planned!

              P.S. - I don't see a venture patrol as solving anything for a boy like this. It just masks the problem. The boy is there at a troop meeting, but he's only focused on planning the next high adventure -- not talking to younger boys, not encouraging them. To top it off, he can point to the adherance to your attendance policy in reply to any of the above questions.

              Comment


              • #8
                Now I could have sworn that the annual Advancement Book has the BSA definition for "Active" -- and specifically states that units cannot create their own policy to supercede ...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks to all for your great guidance! It's greatly appreciated and I'll put it to good use.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yah, hmmm....

                    Don't listen to all da drivel, daveinWA.

                    Your role as a unit scouter is to serve da mission of your Chartered Organization and its goals for youth development.

                    What do they say active is? What values do they want to teach children about commitment and loyalty and all da rest.

                    That's what you should adhere to.

                    If our mission is to build character and timeless values, then da notion that active = registered is ridiculous.

                    The official BSA Rules and Regulations that you agreed to when you became a member state the Policy of the BSA:


                    An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program based on a member's age.

                    So there yeh have it, the official rules that trump whatever tripe da national office is putting out. An active member registers, AND obligates himself to attend meetings regularly AND fulfills a member's obligation to the unit AND subscribes to the Scout Oath AND participates.

                    That's what yeh agreed to do as a condition of membership in the BSA.

                    But as a CC, you work for the Chartered Organization, eh? So it all comes back to what I started with. What does the Chartered Organization believe and want to teach young people? You are honor-bound to promote that, even if the BSA down the road chooses to reverse you.

                    Beavah

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Beavah, I will not pretend to think I can understand your reasoning, as we have ample proof in the past that I frequently just don't get what you are pitching so normally I refrain from commenting but I have to this time.

                      If the BSA reverses Dave, how can it be that he is following the official BSA Rules and Regulations?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree about not listening to the drivel. Just figure out what is the drivel and what is not.

                        The notion of registered equates to active is made up by the Scout-haters and free thinkers that want to do their own thing without any "rule" or such getting in the way.

                        The point BSA makes is that adult leaders have a responsibility to the boys and the unit to keep members active, and that it is not right or fair to let them languish in no-mans-land and then beat them up for not being "active" in the manner they'd like to see.

                        Get them active to your satisfaction or have the guts enough to purge them from the roster.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "I agree about not listening to the drivel. Just figure out what is the drivel and what is not.

                          The notion of registered equates to active is made up by the Scout-haters and free thinkers that want to do their own thing without any "rule" or such getting in the way. "


                          No its not.

                          The BSA has made it clear that its pretty much that.

                          As I noted, for most organizations out there, they will define active as: paying dues and attending meetings/events (prehaps a minimum is required). The BSA has said that troops CAN NOT DO THAT.

                          From the Advancement Committee Guideline booklet (found http://www.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/pdf/33088.pdf but I understand a new edition is coming), on page 24 we read that active in the troop is:

                          * Registered in the unit
                          * Not dismissed from the unit for disciplinary reasons
                          * Engaged by his unit leaders on a regular basis (informed of unit activities thru personal contact).

                          THAT'S IT.

                          NO 'attending meetings'. NO 'attending events' or the like. This personal contact could be you called the boy and told him of an upcoming event. Or emailed him about things. Or mailed him stuff. He doesn't have to come.

                          I bet daveinWA's troops definition is more along the lines of coming to meetings and event. Too bad, the BSA says no.

                          Don't assume I agree with this. I am giving you what the BSA's policy is on it.




                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So emb, you put no stock in

                            "The official BSA Rules and Regulations that you agreed to when you became a member state the Policy of the BSA:


                            An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program based on a member's age."

                            ?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Dave,

                              Did he complete his POR? Keep in mind, he may have been a Life Scout for 2 years and completed the POR in the first 6 months - it still counts. It even counts if he did his POR in the Troop then moved on to a Crew and never held a POR in the Crew - he still meets the requirement because he held a POR as a Life Scout for 6 months (and you might see where this is going - if he was a Life Scout at 14, did his 6 months POR, then dropped out until he was 16, he's already met the requirement - he doesn't have to start over).

                              POR done? Check and move on.

                              The big question is "active in the Troop". Here's the entire requirement for Eagle Scout: "Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least 6 months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout." So it doesn't matter if he was active in the Crew and not the Troop - he can be active in any of these.

                              Generally, the BSA treats "or" as any one of these for any amount of time at any time as long as it totals 6 months. In other words, if he was active in a Troop for 3 months, then active in a Crew for 3 months, he meets the at least 6 months active requirement - provided they are not concurrent months. Being active in a Troop and a Crew for 3 months at the same time does not equal 6 months. Being active in a Troop from January to March then a Crew from May to July is 6 months. I deliberately put in the time gap to make a point - the time active doesn't have to be consecutive either - the requirement does not say 6 consecutive months - it just says 6 months. Yes, it could potentially lead to a Scout being active in Jan, Mar, May, July, Sept, Nov but not active at all in the other 6 months reaching that point but that's not likely to happen since one of the keys of being active is being registered and I don't know of anyone who whould register and quit in such a pattern. Quitting a Troop after three months and joing a crew a few months later - quite possible - and if he's a Life Scout, the clock doesn't start over on 6 months active, it starts with the end of the last point active since rank.

                              It'll lead to another conundrum too - it's possible for a Scout to have earned Life at 14, held a POR for 6 months and be active during that time, earn most of his merit badges, drop out, re-sign up at 17 to do the project and any stray merit badges, and meet the requirements without holding any additional POR or "active" requirements. The BSA typically interprets "at least" 6 months to mean 6 full months and not a day less with anything beyond that to be a bonus. Of course, if you're the Scoutmaster of the Troop that the 17 year old is joining, you're going to make sure the lad is participating somehow, even without a formal POR, if you're going to put forth the effort to guide him in the last part of the journey.

                              So has he been active in the Troop and/or the Crew for 6 discrete months? You can check this one off too.

                              Once you do that, the only real question is should the Troop or the Crew take the lead at this point? If he's more active in the Crew, can't the Crew handle the project mentoring, the BOR and the Court of Honor? I'd think so.

                              BTW - a Crew member can't just go from First Class to Eagle Scout as a member of a Crew - they still have to earn Star and Life - and although these requirements state "be active in your Troop and Patrol" (which is different from the requirement for Eagle Scout), the BSA has said that if someone is a member of a Crew or Ship, that Troop means Crew (or Ship)and that the POR requirements can be met with Crew/Ship POR's. If a Star Scout is active in the Crew and not the Troop, he is going to have to hold a Crew leadership position.

                              BTW - no gauntlet needed - if the candidate has met the BSA's requirements (no matter what "policies" or "requirements" the unit has, it's the BSA's requirements that must be followed - no additions, subtractions or substitutions) then there should be no need to form some kind of gauntlet.

                              I'd suggest in this case, let the Crew committee handle the BOR.

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