Sheldonsmom, while not letting some of the more pointed jibes get to you, do prayerfully consider many of the points Basement and packsaddle have made.
Christ preached compassion, and the Scout Law values being friendly, courteous and kind. Can not these things be extended to those you disagree with intellectually and morally? What does kindness and compassion cost you?
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- Sep 2006
My question would be "Why is it ok for some to demand their freedom of association within their units but it's not ok when others that don't have the same beliefs get the same freedom of association?"
Sheldonsmom (and I have to say, I picture Laurie Metcalf whenever I read your posts) I don't think it's much to do with anti-conservative feelings as it is to our general reaction as Americans, whether we're conservative, liberal, populist, moderate, progessive, libertarian, to folks who say they are going to take their ball and go home. The American response is to just shrug our shoulders, say, "okay, don't let the door slap you in the behind on the way out" and get on with our business. If you were to take the time (and it would be mind-numbing) to cruise through the entirety of these forums going way back, even in the non-political threads, you'll see conservatives and liberals saying essentially "Okay, bye-bye, see-ya, don't let the door hit you" to people claiming they're going to leave, and in many cases, conservatives and liberals joining together to tell folks that.
At the point someone threatens to leave, we really just don't care if they're conservative, liberal, straight, gay, man, woman, child - most of us are adults and most of us recognize manipulative tactics when we see it - and the "see ya, have a good life" response is someone verbalizing our collective yawn.
OK, on the invitation to leave stuff:
I would hate to try to count all the times that I've been invited by other members in these forums to leave scouting and start my own club, just because I voiced an opinion they disagreed with. And not only me but plenty of others who voiced similar opinions. In at least one case I was essentially told I would go to hell. (that one, at least, might be correct, who knows?)
So enough with the angst about being "shown the curb" as one member once put it to me, that stuff comes from all sides and we just need to shrug it off. Sticks and stones, you know....
While a lot is said about the Bill of Rights, one that often takes a beating is the one pointed out in this thread, "Freedom of Association."
While I don't tout my horn as any goodie-two-shoes, I do believe it is my right to associate with people I like. I shouldn't be forced by government regulation to associate with those I don't.
I don't hang out with druggies, alcoholics, criminals of any ilk, swingers, or others who don't have the same morals and standards I try to adhere to. While I afford others the respect to hang out with whom they wish, I would also like the right to do so myself. If BSA allows certain people in an association I am affiliated with. That's fine, but once those people's activities infringe on my personal beliefs, I have the choice to seek out other associations I feel more comfortable with. No problem, but don't criticize, judge or degrade my choices in life. I may end up a hermit because of those choices, but so be it, it's my choice.
If people of different standards than mine are involved with a group I am associated with and they do not try and impose their standards on me, how am I to know? Keeping to oneself for the common goals of an organization is just fine. I don't impose on others and as long as they reciprocate in like kind, no problem, just don't insist their choices are what I must choose for myself. Toleration just doesn't work that way.
I tolerate others, and if others wish to associate with me, they must tolerate me as well. If not, have a nice day, I'm going to seek other places where I feel more welcomed.
Refresh my memory: where does the word 'association' occur in the Bill of Rights?
I'm not saying there ISN'T such a right, I'm just trying to find those words.
Were you trying to answer my previous question in all that?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)
Pack - the words are actually "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" which has been interepreted by SCOTUS to be an associative right that not only gives one the right to gather and assemble in protest, but to join associations and associate with like-minded people.
It refers to the right to peaceful assembly. I think this is being referred to in respect that if a group assembles the are not to be infringed upon by governmental or civil organizations to impose upon them and their assembly.
While a lot use this to support assembly for protest purposes, it does not mean it is exclusively for this manner. It is easy to understand a group of religious people gathering and not being encroached on, but there are others out there that are entitled to peaceful assembly without others causing disruption being imposed on them.
As long as the BSA assembles peacefully and causes no problems for others, they are given the right not to be disturbed by outside forces.
Calico, you take me too seriously. I was just playing around, turning the tables on those who claim there is no 'right to privacy' in the Bill of Rights. You know...those pesky activist court interpretations.
Edit: Oops, I guess jblake47 and I were typing at the same time. So about all that encroaching...who is going to be doing it? I don't understand the problem, I guess.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)
- Mar 2008
KEEP SCOUTING LOCAL
Very Early in by Adult scouting career I spent a lot of energy chasing scouts who missed meeting, activities or requirements. After much wasted energy, and losing all of the scouts anyhow, despite paying for summer camps, entry fees, packing extra meals and picking up and dropping off at home, I still lose them anyhow. I have come to the conclusion they weren't that into it anyhow.
I am thru chasing scouts or parents who say, if you don't ___________ I will quit.
Sheldonsmom, my jab at the AHG's wasn't specifically generated at you. I have a beef with them regarding their christian only spin on their organization. All of the local AHG troops are in White, wealthy suburbia.
Basement, the AHG started in my hometown. So if you think you see alot of them, you don't even know. I have an objection to the organization, not the people in it. I object even more the "partnership" between the BSA and AHG because there is no benefit to the BSA.
It's funny. With all this talk about freedom to assemble/associate, why do some feel it appropriate to chastise the AHG. Their organization started because it's original members chose to associate with like-minded people ... and they grew. In the process, they and the BSA chose to associate with each other.
Do you feel threatened by them? I sure don't. I like what they stand for, I like their style, and I'm feeling the urge to associate with them.
BDPT: Surely you are allowed to associate with them if you want to. I personally don't mind their organization, they are free to be an all girls Christian organization. However, the Boy Scouts of America is a non-sectarian organization (Note that is different from Secular). I don't like the idea of the BSA partnering with a group that only allows only Christians into it.
It doesn't really help that the only AHG mother I've met in my life (Which I live in West Chester, the founding home of the AHG) told me she wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon and was an evil follower of the devil. Perhaps that is only one member, but it made a lasting impression on me about what the AHG could be like. I wasn't impressed.
Furthermore, what interest does the BSA have in furthering a all Christian girls organization? Is the BSA opening support agreements with Jewish girls associations or Muslim women's associations?
Yours in Scouting and Service: