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  • #16
    Hunt,

    If you think I am a proponent of animal cruelty, then you dont apply much thought to the views expressed in my posts. This needs not be said, but just for you: I am not advocating the torture of animals. And, I do not consider fishing to be cruel, for sport or for food.

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    • #17
      Rooster,

      I'm glad you agree that we don't have to debate religion to be good scouts. Like I tell my own sons, "A Scout is Reverent (but not necessarily a Christian."

      And I would certainly never call you a pig. Some of my best friends are pigs.

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      • #18
        But, if he WERE a pig, he's sure taste good with eggs!!!

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        • #19
          Oooooo....PORK! Lunch time!

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          • #20
            mmmm... !

            I also tell my boys, "If God hadn't wanted us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made 'em out of meat."

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            • #21
              Rooster said: "I am not advocating the torture of animals. And, I do not consider fishing to be cruel, for sport or for food."

              Could you explain why you don't think fishing for sport is cruel? Is it because fish don't feel pain? Or is it because fish are a lower order of being, and that the value of the sport outweighs their pain? Or is there some other reason?

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              • #22
                I am not any sort of a vegetarian. Give me a plate full of meat and potatoes and I'm a very happy camper.
                I do think of myself as being an animal lover and would never intentionally harm or hurt an animal.
                I don't hunt or fish. Hunting is real big in our area and almost seems to be part of a young Lads passage to manhood. Many of my friends are really into hunting, some have specialized and only hunt certain things: Ducks,Turkeys or Deer. Some just hunt while some have got heavily involved into organizations that promote whatever it is they hunt, organizations like the Wild Turkey Federation and Ducks unlimited.
                I don't fish, I just can't sit still for that long. Fish'n'Chips were the fast food of my generation back home in England. Her That Must Be obeyed, nearly died when I ordered a trout in a restaurant in France, the waiter wheeled over a fish tank, I picked the fish that caught my fancy. The poor fish got a quick bonk on the head and was soon there after in a pan, sizzling away in butter and white wine. He or she was a tasty little morsel.
                I will admit that I have never ever given much thought to cruelty to fish. I do remember reading that it was more humane to get a long needle and poke it through the eye of a live lobster, rather than just tossing the lobster into boiling water. I did wonder how anyone ever worked that out?
                I have to wonder how long it will be before some group works out that plants have feelings? And picking tomatoes causes pain to the plant.
                I do get a little upset when I see how eggs are produced, 1000's of hens stacked high in cages. I'm sure that these hens are not as happy as the ones that had the run of the farm yard. I choose not to think about them when I eat an egg.
                Maybe, that's just it I have so many other things to think about and am happy not to think about this stuff.
                Eamonn.

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                • #23
                  One trunk of a three trunk tree in our front yard had died of natural causes. Probably it was some type of rot but I was unsure. I decided that I should cut it down to keep it from being a hazard to our children. Before I chopped it into logs for the fire, I apologized.

                  I am unsure of its feelings or if it were completely dead or not, since it was attached at the base. I couldn't communicate with it using the usual methods. I don't know if the remaining two trunks were affected or how they viewed the experience. They might be angry or relieved, I didn't know. I didn't know if it has relatives that should be notified or if the fire is the best burial route. I couldn't visualize in my mind if the remaining two trunks would be grieved or if there should be a service of some kind.

                  If it were another being in a past life, I didn't know if I should be the one to send it on to the next. I decided that the remains should be used in a wash instead of the fire and that over a period of time that the earth would build up around its' remains and it would slowly return to its' maker.

                  That was some of my thoughts as I sat fishing last Sunday morning.

                  By the way, I didnt catch anything but a string of suckers.

                  FB


                  FB

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                  • #24
                    Well, I'm pretty comfortable that plants don't feel pain or have emotions, and I'm quite certain that human beings do have them, but I thought we were talking about fish, which are somewhere in between. The issue is where you draw the line. I think most people would think treating mammals like fish would be cruel (catching them with hooks and then releasing them). I think that's because most of us feel more discomfort the higher the brain functions of the creature are.
                    But really, is even the pain of the creature the measure of cruelty? I've always thought it was cruel to burn ants with a magnifying glass--but not cruel to poison the ants that were invading my house. Maybe motive matters.
                    For me personally, the ethical question would be whether the value of the activity to me outweighs the suffering inflicted on the animal involved. Thus, for example, I wouldn't hunt animals just for sport, because I don't think the balance is there. Fishing is a closer call, because fish are a lower order and there is a better argument that they don't feel pain the same way as more complex animals.

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                    • #25
                      I do not believe that complexity matters when speaking about life. The world is filled with life. We hurt it or help as we live. Choices are limited. Selecting our movements carefully within those choices brings motive to our actions and reduces the conflicts. It is peace that I propose but fish are still on the menu.
                      FB

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                      • #26
                        Let's see ..... God gave us dominion over the animals ........

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                        • #27
                          Ed, I agree that God gave us dominion over the animals. What does that have to do with what constitutes cruelty to animals? Are you trying to say that this "dominion" means that there is no moral dimension at all to how animals are treated? How about...a Scout is Kind? Or does that only apply to people?

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                          • #28
                            "God gave us dominion over the animals"

                            Ed, you do understand, don't you, that this is your belief and that persons of other faiths do not share this belief. I respect your belief and you are entitled and encouraged to act accordingly, but I will vigorously oppose any attempt to insert it into public policy.

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                            • #29
                              Dominion over doesn't mean abuse. Abuse of any living thing is wrong. Fishing is not abuse! Neither is hunting! The PETA ilk really need to get out more! If they were actually for ethical treatment of animals they would focus on cock fights, dog fights, etc. where actual abuse occurs! Instead they head out in the woods & try to stop hunters! Morons!

                              Ed Mori
                              Troop 1
                              1 Peter 4:10

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                              • #30
                                whew! I'm relieved. For a moment I thought you might be one of those nuts who opposes the Endangered Species Act and actually thinks it is OK to destroy habitat for monetary gain.

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