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  • Help for new cubmaster

    Maybe I can get help here... I just finished my first year as the CM/Wolf DL for a small pack (my son is going to be starting his Bear year.) My question is: Our pack did the three summer monthly meetings to qualify for the Summer Time Activity award. Does my son (and the other scouts in his den) get the wolf STA pin or the bear STA pin ?? I've looked at a few places on the web and have seen it both ways. I've called the council, but got the "I'll have to get back with you on this." Any ideas? Thanks
    Last edited by eaglei01; 08-30-2013, 09:51 PM. Reason: can't spell :)

  • #2
    I'd call him a bear from the beginning of summer. Your erstwhile tigers would get the wolf STA. I'm sure some folks here would say the opposite.

    Comment


    • #3
      I would call him a Bear in that scenario at least where we are. Our advancement was in March but I know our council does not considered them advanced until June. Hence our new Web I's are not permitted to go to a District Spring overnight, but are welcome after June to participate in Webelos activities.

      Comment


      • #4
        I know this isn't official but meritbadge.org says otherwise. The vast majority of tigers start with the school year so how could they earn the Tiger pin ? I think further evidence is that there is no Webelos II pin. "Since the goal of the Summertime award is to have Packs continue the program through the summer, the summertime award scouts receive should match their current rank rather than the rank they are working on (ie, boys who have attained the rank of Tiger will receive the Tiger pin even though they are in a Wolf Den and working towards the Wolf rank). " http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php...mmertime_Award

        Comment


      • #5
        That's kindof confusing, seeing that at the end of the school year your suppose to advance them up a rank, and then they are to start working on earning the rank for the new rank (and if they didn't complete it stop earning rank for the for the old rank unless they choose not to advance then they can't work on the new rank just the old rank)..

        So if they are still they are a tiger & wolf at the same time that makes them a tilf, or woger, or wolf/bear they would be woar or belf etc... Hmm.. confusing..

        Comment


        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          When has the BSA been anything but confusing ? From my understanding at the end of the school year they are not advanced in Rank, they are just advanced in Den. So lets a assume a Cub earned his Tiger Rank but didn't do much Wolf year and now is in third grade. He is in a Bear Den working on his Bear requirements. What Rank is he ? Tiger. Am I wrong ? He does not hold the Wolf rank, he didnt earn it, or the Bear Rank because he has not completed the requirements for either. No "Rank Advancement" form for Wolf or Bear has been submitted to the service center.

          That leaves the question what does he call himself ? He is not really a Bear, he does not hold the Bear Rank. Maybe apples and oranges but a First Class Scout does not call himself a Star Scout until he has completed the requirements and passed his BOR. It seems wrong to make him say he is a Tiger. It seems silly to make him get all nuanced and say "I am in a Bear Den" or "I am working on my Bear Rank".

          I was AC last year so I did a lot of searching on the issue. As further evidence to support this view the Outdoor Activity Award can be earned 5 times, flap with 4 devices, but the Summertime Pack Award only 4 times.

          The whole your Rank is Wolf but you wear a Bear Necker and are in a Bear Den thing is confusing. Try explaining that to parents. Or the this is Cub Scouts but your son is not a Cub Scout he is a Tiger Cub or a Webelos. He is a "Cub Scout" for only two of the nearly five years.
          Last edited by King Ding Dong; 08-31-2013, 10:30 AM.

      • #6
        They should get the Bear pin. They completed wolf, and during the summer can work on Bear requirements (if they went to day camp, they would work on Bear not Wolf, right?). Same deal here. Award them the Bear pin and call it a good summer!

        Comment


        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          Thats right....We have a quality Webelo program....we take the Webelos to summer camp, troop host them on two camp outs and they by May of their first year they have completed all the requirements for the AOL

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          Is this just a regional difference ? I don't know any 10 1/2 year olds in May of their 4th grade year. My oldest was still 9 at the end of 4th grade. He wasn't 10 1/2 until February of 5th grade.

        • dedkad
          dedkad commented
          Editing a comment
          Could be more regional, KDD, and definitely financial. Families who don't need to worry about paying for childcare or preschool will often hold back their boys with September through December birthdays so they will be more mature when they start school. These boys are turning 10 years old when they start 4th grade, so 10-1/2 years by May of 4th grade is not unreasonable at all where I live.

      • #7
        Your Cubscouts are the rank that they are when you turn in the advancement sheets to Council saying...this Scout is now a Bear on this date. Done. So, during the summer that they are a BEAR, they get the BEAR Summertime Pack Award PIN.

        A Tiger can earn the Tiger Pin if they sign-up as a Tiger before Summer. IE: Spring recruitment. That new Scout who just graduated Kindergarten can join Cubscouts.

        Comment


        • dedkad
          dedkad commented
          Editing a comment
          Huey, he'll technically be a Webelos when he finishes his Bear requirements at the end of 3rd grade, so he has his 3-4 summer and his 4-5 summer in Cub Scouts. KDD's question is still unanswered.

        • Hueymungus
          Hueymungus commented
          Editing a comment
          Each Summer is in that Rank. So, once Bear Rank is completed and the Cubscout Year is over, generally June 1st, Scout moves up to Webelos I. Once Summertime Pack Award requirements are met, he is awarded the Webelos Pin for that Summer as WI. It does stand to reason that during the Webelos II Summer he can earn the Pin.
          So, yes it can.

        • Hueymungus
          Hueymungus commented
          Editing a comment
          I will also say that most Packs that I know including the one that I was in, didn't re-buy a beltloop or pin that was re-earned. So, it could be just stated that he earned it and congratulate the Scout at the Pack Meeting. It's what we did. It cuts down cost within the budget.

      • #8
        The Summer Time Awards has no bearing on rank advancement. Whatever your Pack wants to base it on. just be consistant Since we haven't recruited in the Spring, most of our Scouts signed on in the fall, we award them at the previous rank going into the Summer

        Comment


        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          Awe that hurts coming from the IH of a parlor troop

          Only when I think something of the award. KDD......The Outdoor Achievement award means something....... So why didn't you email national and ask????

          It takes much more than showing up for an adult planned and lead thing....

          I have a couple of lads that earned the initial patch and the Camping Rocker and one gold and two silver devices each......They are not my scout either.....He needs to earn either First Aid or pioneering merit badge to finish. then he will have one gold and three to five silver devices depending on how long it takes him to


          Lets talk about the JTE....

          So for earning the JTE on any level you get to buy everyone in the unit a patch for a couple of bucks a piece..... Then your DE's bonus is tied too it.......No reason to fill it out, your DE will do it and make your unit gold......
          Last edited by Basementdweller; 09-01-2013, 03:37 PM.

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          Three to five silver devices for the camping badge, that's impressive. Each silver device is for an additional 100 camping nights. Wow. 300-500 camping nights, that's a camping machine. All under the auspices of the BSA with over half his patrol. There should be a platinum device for that.
          Last edited by King Ding Dong; 09-01-2013, 07:57 PM.

        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          Pretty easy with an active program.....He will camp every weekend in October between OA, the troop and his Patrol camp out. June he camped 11 nights with resident camp, jambo troop and the troop, July he had 14 nights 10 at jambo troop and patrol, August 4 nights......September only 3. All under the Auspices of scouting....

          So he camped 42 nights from June thru september of this year..... Thru October he will have 50 days. A group within the troop is talking about going backpacking for 4 nights over Thanksgiving.

      • #9
        Somewhere in the BSA documents/leader book it says that the rank a boy is working on, and what den they are in is what you would call them. So a boy who is going into 3rd grade, National says they are Bear Scouts, they are in your Bear den and they are working toward their Bear badge, right? Why would you give them a Summertime Pack Award pin for wolf? Makes no sense.

        As to the question of why have a Tiger summertime Pack award if there aren't any tigers--they don't get any new tigers in the pack until the fall--well at the time the Summertime pack award was rolled out, there was a HUGE push to get Tigers registered at the end of May/first of June so they could participate in the Pack's summertime events, and go to day camp or resident camp. so it would make sense for those boys who join and go to all the summertime events to be able to get the Tiger Summertime Pack award pin--otherwise they don't get any pin at all?

        As to 2nd year webelos then getting two webelos pins, well in 8 years of doing the summertime pack award, I've only had a small handful of boys who actually earned the webelos summertime pack award both summers. Usually we lose them to a family vacation in June or July so there is no way they can attend, especially two summers in a row. I had some leftovers of the plain gold summertime pack award pins that they used to offer (cause used to be you could earn 5 plain gold summertime pack award pins) and I gave the boys who earned the pin two times as webelos a choice of a second webelos pin or a plain gold pin and most chose to get the webelos pin a 2nd time. So no big deal.

        Be consistent, and figure out what you'll do with tigers who join before August if they earn the award, and what you'll do with 2nd year webelose if they earn the award. as long as you have a reasonable answer for those instances nobody will care. Aside from the fact that the pin color goes with the color of their neckerchief, even though we think it should go with the color of their rank patch, and the wolf and webelos pins get mixed up anyways. most boys are never going to earn all 5 years of pins anyway.

        Comment


        • #10
          According to page 32 of the Cub Scout Leader Book (2010 printing) the boys "graduate" to the next level at the end of the school year, "usually May or June". The specific example in the Leader Book is Tigers to Wolves. Based on this, for the Summertime award, they receive the color award for the grade they will start in the fall. The only difference is the color band on the outside. Otherwise the awards are the same and the requirements are the same.

          Comment


          • #11
            I thought I read someplace that the "official" change date was June 1. Prior to June they could still work on Wolf electives. After that, they would be working on bear stuff.

            Yeah, I think the BSA makes all of this way more confusing that it needs to be. EVERYTHING we do is based on the school year, except council drives dues on the calendar year.

            Comment


            • #12
              Except when.....or if.....

              He advances when he advances.......Bottom line for me is He cannot work on two ranks at the same time.....

              So Honestly who cares if he advances June 1 or September 1st

              Comment


              • #13
                Yeah, I gotta agree with that. Who cares when....
                I can see it getting a little more important if the pack is active through the summer.... and by active I mean den meetings ad pack meetings continue the same all year..... then it may be a little more of something to concern yourself with.

                Comment


                • Hueymungus
                  Hueymungus commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If you do a Spring Recruitment and target the Kindergarten Class, you will get your Den of Tigers. They can get registered along with the new Tiger Den Leaders and head off towards Summer Camp all all the other fun things. Makes for an easier Fall Recruitment.

              • #14
                The Third Party sites say "year completed," which makes sense, because all the Summertime Stuff includes Den Stuff, and you don't really know your fall Den Numbers because Dens might merge/split in the fall. We used the year completed, because that lets an active Scout earn all 4 pins, and it makes zero sense to have no ability for a Tiger to really earn it and a Webelos be able to earn it twice. Same thing with Outdoor Activity Award... we do stuff all year, then we go to camp, camp is only offered in the summer. You could never earn the Tiger one unless your parents came as your adult partner?!?!? That's silly.

                That said, you can do it either way, whatever makes your Pack Go.

                Will the Summertime Pack Award incent Tigers to sign up in the Springs and do stuff with the special Tiger award (we tried that, totally failed, new Scouts have no idea what Scout bling is). Alternatively, does doing it with their Tiger Buddies give them a reason to come, and have a chance to "collect them all?"

                In general, a Cub advances at the later of:
                June 1st, assuming rank earned
                Sept 1st, assuming rank not earned

                I mean, why would you deny a Scout the summer to wrap up his prior year Rank? Electives? Who cares, work on the new ones. One or two away from an Arrow Point, wrap it up, then move on.

                I mean, my Scouts were psyched to move on to the next level, why would they stick at the old level. If one "missed out" on an achievement, why not let him wrap it up in June?

                Regarding the Pins... I look at it like Outdoor Activity. All my Scouts that went to summer camp had their new Patches, that was cool and different. Why wait until October/November to earn them at the new level. Finished the School year, go to camp, get cool new patches.

                Comment


                • dedkad
                  dedkad commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You've made the best argument yet for basing it on the year just completed. As you mentioned, you have no idea how many boys will be in a den until you complete your fall recruitment. Because the Summertime application asks for a 50% threshold for the den award, it would seem that the just-completed year makes more sense because you know how many boys were in that den at the time you submit the application for award.

                • 5yearscouter
                  5yearscouter commented
                  Editing a comment
                  dedkad,
                  if you have 8 bears on May 31st,
                  then on June 1st council database changes their rank and you have webelos,
                  so you do the paperwork for the summertime pack award based on how many are in your brand new webelos den for the summer. The goal of the award is to keep them active in the summer so you don't lose them by the fall.

              • #15
                The reality is only once have we extended our Units June 1st advancement for a lad.....guess what he didn't earn it anyhow

                Comment


                • 5yearscouter
                  5yearscouter commented
                  Editing a comment
                  We have never had a boy work on his rank after June 1st. We tell them the end of May is the cut off, go thru a graduation ceremony to the next rank with changes of hats and neckers the end of may and they get new books. the boys really don't care to go back and finish the old stuff once that new book gets in their hot little hands.
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