MB requirements not met?

[Eagle76]

A couple of our Scouts (Star rank) turned in completed MB blue cards from summer camp for Camping MB. My first thought was, "How sad that they should get a merit badge for Camping when they've never camped out of sight of their cars." (I am engaged in a campaign move us away from an all car camping program.) Then I looked at the requirements, and frankly, I don't see how the boys could have met them the way our program is. As an ASM, should I do or say something? If so, what?

Many thanks.

[OldGreyEagle]

what requirements specifically do you mean?

[Hunt]

It seems to me, after looking at the requirements again, that almost all of them could be done at summer camp, except for the nights of camping. They could have climbed a mountain, done a conservation project, done all all the "show and tell" requirements, etc. there. So it may be entirely legit.

 

There have been many conversations here about what to do if you believe a MB was not properly completed. It's been pointed out that once the badge is award by an authorized counselor, you really can't take it away. However, there are a couple of things you can do. First, if the counselors at the camp are handing out badges when all the work hasn't been done, you should talk to the camp, or find a new camp. Second, if you have a frank discussion with the boys and they agree that some of the requirements weren't done adequately, make arrangements for them to do them--you don't need to take away the MB (you probably can't)--but I think you could urge them to do the requirements so they will feel good about keeping the MB.

[Eagle76]

These are the requirements I had in mind.

 

3. Make a written plan for an overnight trek and explain how to get to your camping spot using a topographical map and compass.

 

Although one could probably argue that you don't actually have to go on the planned trek.

 

7. Prepare for an overnight campout with your patrol by doing the following:

a. Make a checklist of personal and patrol gear that will be needed.

b. Prepare a camp menu that is right for backpacking. Give recipes and make a food list for your patrol. Plan two breakfasts, three lunches, and two suppers. Discuss how to protect your food against bad weather, animals, and contamination.

c. Pack your own gear and your share of the patrol equipment and food for proper carrying. Show that your pack is right for quickly getting what is needed first, and that it has been assembled properly for comfort, weight, balance, size, and neatness.

 

This one really sounds to me like you DO need to go on a backpacking trip, especially c. Although I suppose a sea lawyer could argue that it's enough to make your checklist, plan your menu, and pack a pack, without actually carrying the gear anywhere or doing the outing.

 

9. Show experience in camping by doing the following:

b. On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision:

1. Hike up a mountain, gaining at least 2,000 vertical feet.

2. Backpack for at least four miles.

3. Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.

4. Plan and carry out a float trip of at least four hours.

5. Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

 

This one I don't see a way around. 1 and 2 sound like the "easy" choices, but I'm pretty sure we've done no backpacking (2), no biking on campouts (3), no floating on campouts (4), and no rappelling on campouts (5). At most I would rate 1 a "maybe", but it's just as likely that a separate hike, not on a campout, was "counted."

[Bob White]

As sout, according to the Merit badge counselor orienteering, is required to do no more and no less than stated in the official requirements.

 

Requirements 3 and 7 do not require a campout or hike. Requirement 9 does not have to be done on a troop or patrol outing.

 

If you feel the MB counselor did not fulfill their responsibilities you should submit your concerns and evidence to the Council Advancement Committee. ( I must tell you though that you have a very weak case). If the counselor did not do the job correctly he or she will be told how to come in line with the requirements in the future or be removed. However, if the scouts have received their merit badges they will not be revoked.

 

BW

[EagleInKY]

I agree in essence with Hunt's comment. Every year we get MB cards signed as complete, and we know good and well the boys didn't complete it. We get these on the morning of departure from SC, so it's difficult to go through 100s of cards and spot a mistake.

 

What we do is talk to the scout and point out the mistake. Reminding him that "A Scout is Trustworthy", we talk about how to handle it. Nearly every scout will immediately say that he needs to complete the work before receiving the MB. We treat it as a partial from that point.

[packsaddle]

This has been a long-standing concern of mine, but not for camping MB. For that one, the boys in this unit have usually met the requirements easily before they get too far into the badge at camp. My concern is for those MBs that require, for example, a 500-word essay or a one-week project. I know that the counselors are signing off on these requirements when the boys have not actually completed them. Actually it seems to be common knowledge because the boys discuss this among themselves and organize to 'target' those badges for summer camp. (Not exactly the type of 'leadership' I would like them to develop)

I have taken my concerns up the line. They do nothing but smile and promise to address the concern. And then more of the same, nothing happens to address the problem.

However, if an approved counselor has signed off on the requirements, that is that. Down the road, in the past a couple of boys have come to me and admitted shame at having 'run a scam' and gotten their awards without doing all the work. I commend them for their conscience and inform them that they have learned a lesson more valuable than they might have by actually earning the award. And to use this lesson to do better in the future. But it continues to this day. I'll probably see it again this summer.

[Bob White]

What about the fact that the BSA advancement policies, in the Advancemnt Committee Policies and Procedures manual,state that Merit Badges are not subject to review, and that the decision of the MB counselor is final?

 

Where in any part of the BSA program, resources, or training is any unit leader assigned the responsibility to review merit badges?

 

Presuming you did not know this before, what is the likelyhood that you will follow the program from this point on and not review the merit badge requirements with the scout?

 

 

[Eamonn]

Bob,

While I see where you are coming from and I agree that once the Scout has the signed card in his paw it's too late to take back what has been done.

I do however think that both Council and District Advancement Committees do need to and do in fact rely on feedback from the adults in the program.

Feedback is a gift. I seen that written someplace

[packsaddle]

OK, I'm confused. To whom are you addressing your remarks, Bob White?

 

Edited part: Answered...by EagleInKy, thanks. This is getting close to cyber-gridlock. Good answer, by the way.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[EagleInKY]

 

 

Bob,

 

I guess you'll have to ask our Summer Camp director that. They give us the blue cards on Saturday morning before we leave, and we are told to review them for mistakes. Unfortunately, when I've found a mistake, the staff member in question is usually down the road tearing down tents and doesn't have time to come correct his mistake.

 

 

 

I'm very aware of the policy. I'm also aware that a boy could not do the surface dive required for Lifesaving at SC this year. In the "status book" that the staff provides for leaders, they did not have him checked off as doing it. But when his blue card arrived, guess what? He was signed off as complete on the MB. We didn't catch the mistake until after we got home from Summer Camp.

 

Now, according to your philosophy. We shrug it off and give the boy this Eagle-required Merit Badge. Even though he knows he didn't earn it, the other boys in his class (who did complete it) knows that he didn't earn it, and the whole troop and adult leadership knew he didn't earn it. I ask you, what are you teaching when you do that? It's an insult to the boys who did do the work, it lacks any sort of integrity and it's makes a total sham of the summer camp MB program.

 

Sorry, I'll continue my practice. (Note that I only do this for summer camp badges, I've never questioned a regular MB counselor that a socut was working with.) I believe this approach is within the spirit of the program, it is based upon the Scout Law, and it allows the boy to decide the best approach to resolving the issue.

[Bob White]

Review the card not the requirements. You werenot asked to restest the scout. Is the scout from your troop? Is his name spelled right, is this the MB he took, are the dates correct? Did you get everyones card back? Is his personal info correct? Did the counselor sign it?

 

If the scout wants to come to you and say there has been a mistake good for him, if you want to violate the rules to see if you can find a mistake...bad, bad, bad.

 

The merit badge program is between the scout and the counselor, and if you were indeed aware of that... then you should not be reviewing the requirements as you say you have been.

 

Eamonn:

I agree feedback is a gift. And I think that a scoumaster should be aware of the quality of the work of the counselor, but there are many ways to do that without violating the advancement policies and reviewing the scout when you are specifically instructed not to do that.

 

Improperly appropriating "the gift" robs it of its value.

 

Summer camp is especially easy. Go watch the classes. You have all week you have more than one adult...go visit.

 

Or, quiz the counselor outside of class. Nothing in the rules say you cannot review the requirements with the counselor, just NOT with the scout.

 

If the parent is going as buddy explain to them wat to observe for and to let you know of any concerns they might have.

 

Talk to the scouts, explain to them how to identify good counselors and that they will get far more from a counselor who follows the requirements then someone who does not.

 

Teach them about self respect BEFORE they start on merit badges and on how if they know that a requirement was not completed they should, for the benefit of their own character, speak up about it.

 

There are lots of ways to be a good leader without ever having to break the rules(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

While I see the concerns, once the card is marked complete, it is complete. The concerns should be taken up with the proper advancement committees.

 

During SC, the adults will walk around to the various program areas to see what's going on & to see how our Scouts are doing. If we see something we don't like or think is being done wrong, we address it then. This way we don't get blindsided at the end of the week.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

Merit Badge lists have been the area that has caused me the most headaches during my term as District Chair.

First I really do think that the District Advancement Committee do need to select MB Counselors.

If at times this means saying no. So be it. If the feedback is telling them that someone is not doing the job right and they refuse to do it by the book, they are not worth keeping.

I think I have in these forums posted about the phone call I got from a very unhappy Mom.

Her little Lad had done all the requirements for Dog Care (Well almost). He called the MBC on the phone and they went to his house. The MBC asked do you have a dog? The Lad did have a dog and answered correctly. The MBC signed the card on the doorstep.

Mom was unhappy that it was just to easy and was unfair that her son had done all this work for nothing.

I did point out that before starting the MB he should have met with the MBC.

That guy is no longer on the list.

Eamonn.

[SueM]

It's been a long standing tradition in my troop to do BoR's for MB's too..not just for rank! We realize that this is not necessary but it gives us a chance to get a feel for what the scout has or hasn't learned and also to review to see if he has completed all the requirements, especially for summer camp where some of the badges have prerequisites and sometimes don't do those before camp and forget about them afterwards. It also serves as a way to get him used to the BoR process.