solving an Eagle project problem

[featherswillfly]

Our Unit has a problem with well meaning people coming up with Eagle projects and then also getting all the stuff to do the project then just handing it to the scout. It puts the scout in a very difficult position. This is great by their thinking but takes away from the scout and what he needs to do and experience as a leader. We need some sugestions as to how to handle well meaning groups and individuals. We have explained the process and the benefits of the Eagle process to these people to no avail. Please help us.

[evmori]

Tell these people by doing what they are doing is subtracting from the requirements which is against BSA policy and these projects will no longer be submitted for approval!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[EagleInKY]

What Ed said.... and, talk to your DAC and make sure they are not approving Eagle projects that don't meet the requirements.

[johndaigler]

Can these projects be used in other ways?? Maybe they're more appropriate for service projects by other Scouts than Eagle candidates? If they're so ready-made, they might even make interesting Cub Den service projects, but not knowing the details ... (Careful with this approach, you might make your point and/or insult them to the point of losing even an appropriate amount of support.)

 

It's hard not to be appreciative. Interesting problem -- too MUCH support . . .

 

Though their intent is laudable , they're really doing a dis-service to the Eagle2B. Just be up front with them and let them know E2Bs can't do such "canned" projects and still complete the requirements and intent of the Eagle Project.

 

Good Luck!!

 

jd

 

[Proud Eagle]

You have to be careful with this.

 

If they have a completely planned project, with all materials ready to go, and all documentation prepared, then it wouldn't really make an Eagle project. It would make a fine community service project.

 

On the other hand, you don't want you Eagles to be totally on their own when it comes to identifying, selecting, and planning projects. So, make certain you are diplomatic about this and clearly communicate that while ready made service projects are a great way for Scouts to help the community, Eagle candidates need a project that requires a bit more planning, preparation, and leadership. I think they will be able to understand.

[Eamonn]

We might be walking on very thin ice here.

"Our Unit has a problem with well meaning people coming up with Eagle projects"

The requirement reads:

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The project idea must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 18-927C, in meeting this requirement.

I don't know what you mean by "Coming up with Eagle projects"?

Very often our district will receive requests from organizations who have projects that need done, which are suitable to be used as Eagle Scout Leadership projects. We share this information with the Troops in the District and a Scout can select that project that needs to be done as his project.

He still does the planning,he still develops and gives leadership to the project. I don't see this is any different than a Scout going to his Priest and saying "Hey Father, I need to do a project for my Eagle Scout Leadership project, do you have a project that needs done?"

As to the materials needed to complete the project, I don't read in the requirements anything about about where they are to come from, other than the note that reads:

(Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials or supplies needed to carry out your project.)

In fact there could be projects that involve no materials or the use of materials that are owned by the organization as is shown in one of the BSA examples:

Trained fellow students as audiovisual aides for their school. Arranged for more than 200 hours of audiovisual work.

When I read this I think that the equipment belonged to the school.

How big a project is required? There are no specific requirements, as long as the project is helpful to a religious institution, school, or community. The amount of time spent by you in planning your project and the actual working time spent in carrying out the project should be as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others.

Can a Scout demonstrate his leadership of others using materials that are handed to him? I think he can.

When it comes to adding or subtracting requirements we need to read the the booklet and make sure that we are following the requirements.

Eamonn.

 

 

[johndaigler]

I would certainly bow to Eamonn's thinking, but it doesn't seem that the situation allows for the Scout to PLAN or DEVELOP anything if these projects are as "canned" as I inferred from Featherswillfly's original post.

 

jd

 

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Like we all have a tendancy to do, I believe we jumped to a conclusion based upon the OP. From feathers's description, I am assuming that someone - say the CO for example - is coming to the troop, saying

- we want a sidewalk built

- here, our architect has already made plans

- here is a list of materials needed

- we've priced the materials at Sidewalks "R" us

- here's your budget

- let us know when you're done... see you in two weeks.

 

Now, compare that to how my Eagle project went. We (SM, i.e. dad, and I) went to the CO's elders. I told them that I wanted to do an Eagle project for them, if there was anything major they wanted done. They had a couple of ideas. Top on their list was a barbeque pit at their picnic shelter. They mentioned that Mr. McKee (who happened to be on the Pack Committee) was in the masonry business, and would be an advisor to me. I met with him, we designed the chimney. I priced the materials. I estimated the time it would take. I then brought back a proposal to the elders. They approved it, and I went forward with the project.

 

The difference between the two is huge. Now, if the advisor had already designed the chimney they wanted, would it have been a valid project? Probably. If he had priced the materials? Maybe. When more of the work is done by someone other than the Eagle Candidate it takes away from the legitimacy of the project and the award.

[Eamonn]

I have over the years listened to all sorts of views, I was going to say arguments about Eagle Scout Leadership projects. A lot of well meaning people seem to be very concerned about protecting the award.

At times I have heard that the Scouts we have today are not doing as much as the Scouts of some other time. Many people will take a trip down memory lane. While I can't really talk for Lads of Scout age, I do think that when they start this trip with a Scout, it becomes very much like "When I was a Lad we had walk ten miles to school in our bare feet, through the snow, uphill."

Not so long back I sat in on a meeting of the Council Advancement Committee and heard a District Advancement Chairman, tell me that He likes to see projects that have at least one hundred hours put in.

I know people who see the project as something that has to be of a construction nature, so that when it is done there will be evidence that something was done, something that everyone can stand back, look at and admire.

The list of what I have heard could go on.

There are some things that might and at times do have a lot to do with what the project ends up being.

The human waste disposal unit we call my Son, has procrastinated to such an extend that the project that he was going to do and had been given the green light by all those who do such approvals is no longer needed by the organization that had at one time needed it. He is now searching for a project. I could pick up the phone and within minutes talk to a great number of organizations that would fit the requirements. I have chosen not to do so. My thinking is that it is his project and he should find it. I know of other people who would do everything that they could to get this thing moving. While I have made my choice, when some other well meaning parent or Scoutmaster helps their Son or a Scout in the troop which they serve, it is their choice. The Scout or Son, could say no. At the end of the day the final say does lie with the Scout.

OJ, has decided that he wants to do his project at the local YMCA. I have no idea why he has chosen the YMCA. He is having a real hard time trying to schedule things. Soccer season has just ended, they made the play offs, but got beaten in the second round. The rehearsals for the school play start next week, then track will start. He is very active in the OA,as well as the troop. Girls are now very important. He needs and wants money, with no grass to mow he is feeling financial hardship. He has his driving permit. There is a lot of things happening in his life.

He has spoken to someone in the YMCA,that someone said that they do have things that need done that would be suitable for his project, but he will need to talk with the Director.

When he meets with the Director, he will tell him what he has available. In fact the project is governed to a great extent by the needs of the organization. The requirements are very clear on this. Sure OJ, or any Scout might want to do something but it has to benefit the organization or it is worthless.In conversations with me, OJ has said that he would like to build several benches around the walking track and plant some shrubs. Which sounds like a nice idea, but if this isn't what they want, if they feel this isn't go to benefit them, they are not going to approve it. They might have some prefabricated benches and a company that would donate the plants,if the ground was prepared. The benches might be the type that meet all the specifications that are needed. The project would have changed a lot from his original idea, but would be what they want.

When we deal with a Scout and his Eagle project, we are dealing with that one Scout. He has promised to do his best. When it comes down to approving the project, the first stop is with his Scoutmaster. I would hope that the Scoutmaster knows the Scout, has a good idea of what the Scout is capable of. He could help the Scout decide if maybe the project is too big for him or is a "Mickey Mouse" project that other Scouts could use for other rank advancements. He might be able to give the Scout some idea how much or how little work is involved. Next stop is the Troop Committee, again these people should in most cases have some knowledge of the Scout and be able to offer him some advise and maybe offer their support. The last stop is with the Council or the District. It could be that these people have little or no knowledge about the Scout or the organization that will benefit from the project. These guys can make sure that the organization fits the requirements, they can check the paper work and offer helpful suggestions. As the requirement reads:

The amount of time spent by you in planning your project and the actual working time spent in carrying out the project should be as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others.

We are dealing with that Scout, it is his project, it is up to him to demonstrate his ability to show leadership. I think that a District or Council person, who doesn't know the Scout has no idea of what his leadership level is. He can explain that this is a Leadership project, however he will have to fall back on the approval of the Scoutmaster and the Troop Committee, they know the Scout and have a better idea of what he is capable of.

Everyone, the Scoutmaster, the Troop Committee and the Advancement team want this Scout to show leadership. Different Organizations have different needs. If they want a sidewalk build to the specifications from their Architect, made from the specific materials that only Sidewalks "R" us can supply. This is what they want, this will benefit them, to do something that they don't want just isn't an option.

Many of us who have had the privilege of sitting on Eagle Scout BOR's have seen projects that could be seen as monuments to Scouting, but when we ask the question who worked on the project or look in the workbook, we see it was the Scout and his Dad. The project has taken first place and leadership is just not there. I have seen projects that are small but the Scout in charge has used all the skills of leadership and had an army of scouts and friends work on it under his leadership.

The legitimacy of the award is in the leadership shown by the Scout working on the project.

Eamonn

 

 

[Proud Eagle]

I like Eamon's last post.

 

The point is to show leadership.

 

Now, does a project that someone else planned allow the Scout to show that leadership? I don't think it would in many cases, but there is perhaps some example where it would.

 

Also, I think demonstrating leadership is an absolute requirement. We should have the same MINIMUM expectations for a 13 year old Eagle candidate as we have for a 17 year old. We must hold everyone to the same standard, or else we are not being just and fair. Now, we should expect more from a 17 year old with many other leadership experiences, but in the end, there must be some absolute minimum of what we each consider demonstrating leadership to be. If we hold each Scout to a different standard, that would mean we are changing the requirement for each Scout.

 

I don't know what the policy on disabled or handicapped Scouts is. There may be a policy to allow them some flexibility, but that seems reasonable if they have serious limitations on their ability.

[EagleInKY]

ProudEagle - For those with disabilities, there are alternatives to the traditional Eagle-required Merit Badges. However, there are no alternatives to the Leadership Project. To the best of my knowledge, they are expected to lead in a project that is appropriate for their ability.

 

In reality, I think this is the case for ALL Eagle candidates. The Leadership project should be something that is a challenge for the boy. You said "demonstrating leadership is an absolute requirement". I agree. For some boys, certain skills just come easier to them. Also, as you indicated, age and physical size have an impact on how much the boy can do. Therefore, I believe the difficulty of the leadership project will vary from boy-to-boy. But, in the ideal world, it would be equally challenging to each boy.

[evmori]

Yes the main point is to show leadership. And if a Scout is handed a project with all the stuff but the work done, doesn't this limit the leadership the Scout can show?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dan]

What is the goal of a Eagle project, to become a sidewalk designer, a bench designer, become a draftsman?

Or is it getting 15 people to show up for 6 hours and the scout guide the 15 people into getting the project done?