Eagle Project benefits a business - sort of

[Noah]

Hello,

 

I am a District Advancement Chair and have received a project for approval with a situation I have not encountered before. I'm going to list various details about the project in increasing level of detail. If someone could respond to them individually or as a whole I would appreciate it.

 

1. The project benefits an elementary school in a small town of 10k. It is a small school - one class per grade level.

 

2. The school is not a non-profit, nor is it government owned. It is a private school operated for profit.

 

3. The project involves installing a flag pole.

 

 

Excluding #3, should the project be denied because it benefits a business or approved because it is a school? Having a for-profit school is a rare occurance. It is a school open to all.

 

#3 raises additional questions. In and of itself a flag pole is not terribly difficult to do and would not require a whole lot of leadership. Even expanding it slightly to include landscaping doesn't give that much opportunity to demonstrate leadership. In addition when I contacted the school to inquire as to their organizational structure I found out that the school was donating half of the money for the flag pole. So it sounds like if the Scout doesn't do it the school would construct it anyway.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks

-Noah

[Eamonn]

I think that the project of installing a flag pole might be OK. If the Scout has planned the work and has a few people that are willing to help.

I can't remember ever running into a for profit school. If you feel that this doesn't fall within the guide lines you have no alternative but to point this out to the Scout and deny the project. You might want to seek guidance from your Council Advancement Chair or the Council Advancement Committee.

Eamonn.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I am in agreement with Eamonn. There are other layers in this organization than the unit that are instrumental in helping a young person benefit from and understand the principles of Scouting, especially when there is a complex problem such as a flag pole construction project. The District and the Council should be sought out for their advice and help anytime a leader needs help. BW would most likely quickly concur with this solution also.

 

FB

 

[scoutldr]

From the "Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook":

 

"...The project also may not be performed for a business or an individual, be of a commercial nature, or be a fund raiser."

 

A strict interpretation of this is that, if the organization is incorporated as a business, even a "non-profit", it is not allowed. Although in this council, projects have been approved for a local Assisted-Living facility, such as landscaping of a "nature trail". Even though it benefits old folks who are paying a pretty penny to live there, it is clearly being operated as a business.

 

We may neither add nor subtract requirements.

[Eamonn]

Me thinks that if you look carefully at who owns many of these Assisted Living homes they are owned by non-profit organizations.

We live in an age where many non-profit organizations have to appear to become streamlined and seem to be commercial in order to survive. You only have to look at our own organization to see how much we have changed in the last 94 years. Who would have thought that a small Council would need to sell half a million dollars worth of popcorn to survive?

Eamonn

[scoutldr]

I don't want to get into a battle of semantics, but "non-profit" is very different from "charitable" organization, which I believe is more in line with the intent of an Eagle project. Some non-profits are very definitely "big business." One assisted living facility here is owned and operated by Marriott Corp and the residents are charged $3600 a month rent. You can't get much more "big business" than that. Building that nature trail may benefit the residents, but it's also benefiting the business by providing free landscaping work and adding to their bottom line.

 

It's a tough call, and I can see it both ways, however I think the requirement is unambiguous. If it's a "business" (whether "non-profit" or not) it's not eligible to receive an Eagle project. I think we need a lawyer to untangle this. NJ you out there?

 

To answer Noah's original question, I think he answered it himself. The school is operated as a "for-profit business". There should be no question. The fact that it's a school is irrelevant. Sorry to be a hard-liner, but them's the requirements and the Scout needs to go back and re-read them.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White]

Eagle requirement 5 is quite clear.

 

 

"While a Life Scout plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful tp any religious organization, any school, or your community.

 

No distinction is made between a religious, public, or private school. It just says "any".

The scout read the requirement correctly.

 

BW

 

If there are no other factors that would negate his proposal then you cannot turn the project down based on this point since it is not contrary to the rules of the requirement.

 

BW

 

[dsteele]

I read this thread after reading the replies in the ones about How does council and district influence unit program and the one about commissioners.

 

Interesting tie in that the first couple of answers in this thread refer to the district and council advancement committees and the national organization.

 

I'd call that use and support.

 

Unc.

[Noah]

Hello,

 

I did reach the conclusion after writing my initial post that since it was a business it was out. My job as DAC is to make sure the Scout follows the guidelines not interpret them.

 

However this morning after reading the reply about the assisted living situation I felt that there was already a precedent if push ever came to shove. I do think that the project is in the Spirit of Scouting and Eagle even if it doesn't follow the letter of the law.

 

Although it is a special situation, it is no reason to make a special exception - especially since its not my job to make exceptions. It is best to stop the project before it gets started.

 

Thanks

-Noah(This message has been edited by Noah)

[Noah]

Hello,

 

I was composing my last post while BW posted his reply. The Eagle Workbook does not have the word "any" before school in the requirement section. And the note about not supporting a business is in the Limitations section on the same page. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book does use the word "any" but it refers to religious, school, and community not just school.

 

Although it is an unforseen situation I think the requirements are clear and now is the best time to select another project.

 

Thanks

-Noah

[Bob White]

NOAH, please read the requirements as stated in the Boy Scout Handbook. That is the Scout's resource and it should be your primary one as well. You would be in error if you rejected the Scout's project based on your reasoning.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

At Noah's request I am posting two private messages which we exchanged on this topic. He feels they raise some interesting points.

 

Noah wrote:

Hi BW,

 

See my next post What about a for-profit religious or community center? Per

the Eagle Workbook, the requirement also states that it "should" benefit an

organization other then the BSA. "Should" is not the same as "must." It is not

noted until the limitations section that work involving the BSA is not

permitted.

 

-Noah

 

 

Bob White wrote:

 

The requirement states ANY religious institution. As far as a for-profit community center, unless it is operated by a religion, or is a school, it would not be automatically permitted according to

the requirement.

 

Yes, it should benefit an organization other than the BSA. Is the school the BSA? No, then it passes that test, right?

 

If the rest of the Scout's project meets the requirements stated in the Boy Scout Handbook then it would be improper to deny it based on Requirement 5 which it obviously passes.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Unc,

 

Good eye.

 

FB

[dsteele]

Fuzzy:

 

So far you're the only one who caught (or at least commented on) my oblique reference. I stand by my point.

 

I also compliment you on having an extraordinarily "good eye" yourself.

 

Unc.

[Fuzzy Bear]

In my opinion, "should" is closer to "must", in as much as 51% is thought of as not having an effect until it is put into action.

 

The requirement states that "any" school could be used. Is a For-profit school a school? Only, if used in the sense that the word was intended which is most likely a public school. Were For-profit schools around when the manual was written, yes, but we do not know the background of the writer. Since we don't know the specifics about the person writing or the thought of the committee or writer that wrote the requirement, the word must be used in the way it is generally thought of which is a public school (*unless you live in a closed community) until the issue is approved by the SM, and the District or the Council advancement people to give their interpretation.

 

The next question in regards to the Service Project has to do with the idea of a Good Turn. The definition of a Good Turn is not just the act of helping but it also needs the element of giving extra effort in that act. The person helping must first identify that the receiver is in need of assistance and that assistance must involve doing something that the receiver could not fully do themselves without that assistance. One example is based on an old Scout cartoon where a Scout is helping a woman cross the street against her wishes. He is telling her, as he is pulling, that he must do a Good Turn every day and today is her day.

 

Let's take it a step further, say Lockheed Martin Aircraft Industries builds a building in a community. A Scout passes by and says to himself, "They don't have a flag pole." So, the Scout goes inside and asks to erect the flag pole as his Eagle service project. Everyone is excited about this because it helps them out by making them look good and it helps the Scout out. The Scout says to himself, "this is helping and it involves extra effort." It meets the Good Turn requirement and the Eagle requirement that says "any school" because Lockheed has a night class for some of its employees and the requirement says "any school" and/or my community. LMAI is also a big part of my community, so it meets that part of the definition also. It is this kind of rigid thinking that leads one to believe that they have met all of the standards but in reality they have not because they entirely missed the intent, which should be obvious.

 

Unless a person's community is a model city recently built and stocked with rich, healthy, kind, and wonderful people, then it would be hard to miss the ample opportunities to extend a helping hand to those in need. Quibbling about words is an exercise of the rich, while those in need wonder what all of the fuss is about.

 

FB