Eagle Palm's

[atwork4hr 10]

Our Troop Committee will be having a discussion soon concerning Eagle Palm's. The main topic will be the requirement to "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability". The statement does not clearly indicate wither or not this is to be done as part of the Troop or out side of Scouting such as school or church activities.

[Bob White 20]

The answer is Yes. Either is acceptable. What should happen is, at the beginning of the scout's 3-month time period he should meet with the Scoutmaster and determine his goals for meeting this requirement. What should not happen is for the adult leadership to wait until the Board of Review and then determine that the scouts actions have not been sufficient without ever agree on what "sufficient" is.

[boleta 10]

My son was denied his Gold palm because the SM would not sign off on Leadership Ability. 2 months later, I have convinced the Troop Committe to allow him to have a BOR. The BOR gave him a "continuance" because he did not have proof of his outside leadership activities. He is Class Treasurer, Captain of a Polar Plunge team that raised $600 for Special Olympics and got 10 classmates to jump into the Atlantic Ocean if Feb., Staff at the Outer Banks Camporall in Oct., Acting ASPL on the NESA Jambo at Annapolis in Jan. They are still not convinced that activities outside of the troop can be used to demonstrate leadership ability. The next step is an appeal to the Council Advancement Committee. Isn't it sad that instead of encouraging this 15 year old Eagle Scout to continue in Scouts, they are actively driving him into Venturing where the Palm will be assured?

[scoutldr 732]

A cardinal rule is that the we may neither add to nor subtract from the requirements. Ask them for documentation of the requirement that proves that is must be Scout related. Their opinions don't count. Moving into Venturing may be the best thing to happen to him anyway...it was for me (back when we called it "Exploring")...and he's still in the BSA program.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

This type of situation and many others could be resolved if BSA would spend a bit more on ink and not publish vague requirements.

 

Is it not reasonable to expect that a requirement for a Scout program be be met by Scouting activities? I would say it is unless the book states otherwise. When you are in college, they explicitly state what will and what won't transfer.

 

How hard would it be for BSA to say, "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability which need not be in a Scouting context"?

[boleta 10]

The requirement for the Palm is completely different than that for Star and Life for a reason. Those requirements specifically state position of responsibility in your unit OR scoutmaster assigned leadership project to help the troop. For Eagle, the SM assigned project is NOT an option. For Palms, it is simply- make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability. It does not say "in the troop" because it is NOT REQUIRED! My son just won an election for Class Treasurer for next year. That should do it.

[Bob White 20]

Sorry boleta but I do not see how winning an election fulfills the requirement. The demonstration of leadership comes after the election. Now that he is a class officer let's see what he does to show leadership. It is not about the titles, it is about the skills you use to accpmplish goals that defines leadership.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

boleta, my question still stands, why can't BSA just state that explicitly and eliminate all confusion?

[boleta 10]

1. I agree completely with Bob White that the leadership comes after the election. He attends every class meeting and participates in fundraising. The class would not have been in the Homecoming Parade without his leadership and motivating all to apply. That's leadership.

2. The requirement is not more specific because of the problem of Eagles getting the rank and disappearing. The Palm program is the recognition and incentive to stay active in Scouts. One way to do this is to recognize these High School students (Who need activities for college) for their outside leadership as well.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"2. The requirement is not more specific because of the problem of Eagles getting the rank and disappearing."

 

Who said anything about being specific? It just wouldn't take much ink to state that leadership activities for palms can be outside of Scouting. No need for enumeration.

[boleta 10]

You've got it backwards. If they wanted to exclude outside activities, they would have specified so- just like in the Star, Life and Eagle requirements.

These cases have been appealed to National where the Palm is granted.

 

[boleta 10]

In an earlier posting, FOG says

"Is it not reasonable to expect that a requirement for a Scout program be be met by Scouting activities?"

Then why does the Eagle Leadership Project specifically say scout groups cannot benefit? A valid leadership position is Den Chief that does not even benefit the Unit the Scout is in. A scout can be OA Rep and never be seen by the younger scouts in his unit.

The SM is demanding that my son show leadership ability by working with the younger scouts in the troop. It does not say that this demonstration of leadership ability by assigned by the SM. Only the BOR decides if the requirement is satisfied and it should be worked out in advance of the time period by the troop committee.

Now we have a totally demoralized scout who is still fighting for his Palm (6 months after the bronze)- I guess THAT is leadership in his troop. Be assured the Silver will be persued and awarded in the Venture Crew.

The SM sure showed him!

[Fat Old Guy 11]

boleta, you're taking part of what I've said and stretching the context. The Eagle Leadership project has specific exclusions and who may benefit is specifically stated. My question remains, why cannot BSA simply state that leadership for palms may be outside BSA.

 

 

[boleta 10]

The Palm BOR denied the Gold Palm for my son on Apr. 28. It was appealed to the Troop Committee on Apr. 29. The committee decided in a 6 to 5 vote to consider the demonstration of leadership ability ONLY IN THE TROOP. There was great discussion whether or not this was the troop policy indicating that it had not been worked out before the Palm began in Oct. The appeal is now in the hands of the Council Advancement Committee. I think he has demonstrated great leadership IN THE TROOP to stand up to the SM and the Committee when he thinks (as I do) that they are wrong and that he deserves the Palm.

ps The Committee Appeal Board included 2 members of the original BOR that voted against him.

[dsteele 20]

Fat old guy:

 

You asked boleta "My question remains, why cannot BSA simply state that leadership for palms may be outside BSA."

 

I don't think boleta can answer the question any more than I could.