Board of Review vs. SM conference:

[SteveP]

All of the training I've attended tells me the B of R is NOT for re-testing, and it's the SM's duty to make sure the scout is prepared to move to the next rank. Since the B of R should not just be a rubber stamp of approval, what role does the B of R play--especially if they feel the scout is not suitable for the rank, either because they never see the scout at any troop functions, the scout didn't show scout spirit, did not ACTIVELY participate or lead, etc? I'd request we focus this discussion toward the higher ranks. This is becoming a potentially contentious issue within our troop's leadership, so any words of wisdom are appreciated, as are links to pdf or other sources of "official" interpretations of the rank advancement criteria. For example, we may have one scout who isn't around too much at meetings or campouts, because he's loaded down with other extra-curriculars but when he's there, he's a model scout. Scenario 2 is the scout who is there for the meetings and campouts, but only in body, and a bit of a goof off. What have other troops done to addres this issue, and have you gotten your PLC involved? Thanks again, scouters.

[dsteele]

Here's what the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual has to say about Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review. This is a cut and paste job:

 

"Scoutmaster Conferences

One of the most enjoyable experiences of being a Scoutmaster is the opportunity for a Scout and his leader to sit down and visit together.

 

In large troops, Scoutmasters occasionally assign this responsibility to assistant Scoutmasters or members of the troop committee; but this is unfortunate, because most Scoutmasters feel that this is truly the opportunity to get to know the Scout and help him chart his course in life.

 

A good conference should be unhurried. It helps the Scout evaluate his accomplishments and set new goals with his Scoutmaster. This can be accomplished at a troop meeting, camping trip, or in the Scout's home.

 

Goal setting by the Scout makes it possible for the Scoutmaster to help the Scout with his weaknesses and encourage him to use his strengths.

 

The Scout (joining) conference is probably one of the most important associations the Scout will have in his Scouting career. It is at this conference that the Scoutmaster illustrates to him the adult-youth relationship that is unique to Scouting.

 

All through the ranks, it is rewarding for the Scoutmaster to observe the Scout grow in responsibility and maturity. It is through this association and example that a young man grows and matures, and the Scoutmaster conference accomplishes that aim. (See Scoutmaster Handbook, chapter 10.)"

 

Below is some of what the book has to say about Boards of Review. The book is for sale in most council Scout Shops and can be ordered if needed.

 

"Boards of Review

A periodic review of the progress of a Scout is vital in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Scouting program in the unit. The unit committee can judge how well the Scout being reviewed is benefiting from the program. The unit leader can measure the effectiveness of his or her leadership. The Scout can sense that he is, or is not, advancing properly and can be encouraged to make the most of his Scouting experience.

 

Not only is it important to review those Scouts who have learned and been tested for a rank, but also to review those Scouts who have shown no progress in their advancement over the past few months.

 

The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review.

 

To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank.

To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit.

To encourage the Scout to progress further.

 

 

 

The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community.

 

The decision of all boards of review is arrived at through discussion and must be unanimous.

 

When a boy satisfactorily completes his board of review for a rank or an Eagle Palm, tenure for his next rank or Eagle Palm begins immediately."

 

I'm interested in seeing this discussion of the differences.

 

DS

 

[Bob White]

The answers you seek are best found in the resources of the BSA than in the opinions of forum posters. You will find the explaination of the purpose for Board of Reviews in the Scoutmaster Handbook on page 122.

 

"The purpose of the Board of Review is not to retest a scout, but rather to ensure that he has completed all of the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank.

 

The Explaination of the Scoutmaster conference is on page 120 of the Scoutmaster Handbook.

The Scoutmaster conference is a visit between the Scoutmaster and the scout that is held each time the boy completes the requirements for a rank. The Conference is a valuable opportunity for a SScoutmaster to discuss with each Scout his activity in the troop and his understanding and practice of the ideals of scouting.

 

The next page following this text explains more of this vist. As you can see the Scoutmaster conference and the BOR have very different purposes.

 

You will find more on this topic in the Boy Scout Handbook and the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual available at your council service center.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[dsteele]

Bob:

 

I say this with a smile -- I knew that sooner or later the two of us would post nearly simultaneously with the same answer from two different references. I'm kind of surprised it took this long.

 

Bob and I are not involved in a conspiracy to tout the BSA manuals verbatim -- it just kind of happened.

 

Is that weird or what?

 

Dave

[Bob White]

I was about to post the same thing. Weird....

[Eagledad]

Hi Steve

 

Boy, there is a lot that can be discussed on this subject, but let me start with a few things off the top of my head and I am confident others will join in.

 

The SMs job is helping the scout grow in character, fitness and citizenship. The other stuff like skills, leadership and ideals are the tools or methods for the SM to induce the growth.

 

So a scoutmaster confrences (SC) is really a check on the scout toward his growth. Not a check on can he tie the knots. Its more of finding out if he learned how to tie the knots, does he know where to go in the book to relearn the knots if he forgot them. Even, did he learn how to set a goal to learn more knots. The SC is not a time to check his skills, its a chance to check is growth.

 

Now for those troublesome scouts, a lot of SMs think they only need to do one SC for each scout at each rank advancement. That is where the problem starts. If our job is growth, then we need to talk with the scout enough to watch the growth, and guide him in his performance. It's not really fair to watch the lazy scout who doesn't really appear to live the scout law, but not do anything about until he is ready for his BOR. Mentoring or guiding a scout is a constant process of working with the boy as he performs. You will know if the SM is doing his job if the scout is surprised by anything said in the conference. The SC before the BOR should basically be a review of past performances, conversations and conferences. The scout actually be able to tell the SM where he has improved and grown.

 

Also, the SM should never measure a scout to himself or anyone else in growth. Trust me, I know how frustrating it can be to watch a boy just get by. But the real question is did he grow? Did he make any attempts to better himself through the discussions and conferences with the SM or other mentors? Some scouts will never achieve the ideals you have in mind for a scout. But the small gains you perceive in his performance may be huge leaps to him and his family. Imagine what you do the confidence of a scout who felt he made huge gains in his growth, but the SM said he wasnt a good enough scout yet. Know the scout and his personal abilities. Measure is personal growth.

 

So my suggestions are frequent conferences to measure the performance gains in the scouts, and individual expectations so that each scout is measured against himself. As I said, if some of the comments given by the SM during the conference comes as a surprise to the scout, then the SM or other mentors probably were not working close enough with the scout. If you guide the scout well all during his scouting experience, he will know when he is ready for a BOR.

 

By the way, I never prevented a scout from asking for a BOR even when I felt he wasn't ready after my SC. I advised him why I felt he wasn't ready and suggested he set some goals to improve, but I allowed him to make the decision.

 

Barry

[acco40]

Barry, same can be said for BORs' they do not have to be used solely for advancement. I like to see BORs be used not to retest, but to possibly look into how a requirement was met. For example, my SPL signed off another boys requirement for "demonstrate water rescue techniques by reaching with your arm or leg, by reaching with a suitable object, and by throwing lines and objects" for a boy one evening. I talked to him (the SPL) about it. How can one demonstrate water rescue techniques in a church basement? It is not my style to take away requirements that have been signed off but I "tightened the leash" a bit on the boys about signing off requirements. It is not a bad idea for a BOR to ask a Scout how and when certain requirements were approved and then asking him if he thought it was legit.

 

By the way, as SM, I have delegated the SM conference for every rank (so far up to 1st Class) for one boy in our troop, my son. I do not need to get to know him better plus he and I have many "at home" pseudo SM conferences. It also serves a dual purpose, giving the SAs SM conference practice and teaches my son to interact more with adults WAND (Who Are Not Dad). At first he resented it. "How come you give everyone else their SM conference but me?", was a common refrain. Now he accepts it but I don't think he likes it. Any comments?

[NeilLup]

Hello Acco,

 

If your son really wants an SM conference from you, so that he too meets with the SM, you might oblige him. However, you could explain that you wish, to remove any possible taint of conflict interest, favoritism, etc., you wish him to have a SECOND SM conference with one of the Asst SMs. He gets what he wants and you get what you want.

[Bob White]

"to remove any possible taint of conflict interest,"

 

I'm not sure I understand how you can have a conflict of interest on a scoutmasters conference. This is not a requirement that you pass or fail. It is one you have or don't have. The SC is a visit not a test you can fail. Until the scout meets with the scoutmaster the requirement is not complete. Once he meets with the Scoutmaster it is complete.

 

I recommend you meet with the scout regardless of whether he is your son or not.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[saltheart]

"The answers you seek are best found in the resources of the BSA than in the opinions of forum posters."

 

That's tantamount to saying that these forums serve no purpose, you should go home, read the books, and not participate here.

 

Begging to differ, the question(s) posted here are exactly to obtain others opinions. Read the books, yes, by all means. But don't point the finger from the Ivory Tower and suggest that opinions here have no value.

[Eagledad]

>>By the way, as SM, I have delegated the SM conference for every rank (so far up to 1st Class) for one boy in our troop, my son. I do not need to get to know him better plus he and I have many "at home" pseudo SM conferences.

[Bob White]

Not from an ivory tower but from the perspective as a BSA trainer. Scouting has done just fine with leaders learning the program from the training and resources of the BSA far before the Internet ever existed.

 

To believe that everything about the Internet is wonderful is dangerous. It's one thing to take advice from a person in your scouting community who you have had a chance to get to know and see in action, and another to take advice from a faceless poster who you have little or no way to verify their abilities or knowledge.

 

There are people on this and other forums who do not post the truth about what they know, and about what the BSA program and policies are. Some do it to purposely to degrade the program and confuse well meaning volunteers. Others because they have done things wrong for so long they now believe them to be right.

 

The methods of the BSA program are in the resources of the BSA. If you want ideas on a new ceremony, a new way to teach a skill, a new place to camp or canoe or hike...these are good ways to use a forum such as this.

 

If you want to know how scouting works read the handbooks, take the training, practice the skills. Learn from those in your community you respect. Don't follow the lead of people you do not know and do not confuse internetposts with personal relationships. Realize that not everyone here is who and what they say they are.

 

I am not the only poster who gives the BSA references as the answer to a majority of the questions posed here. That's because we are not trying to get you to do what we say, but to do what the BSA says. After all, it is their national program.

 

If you want to deliver a solid scouting program then do what the scouting program says to do.

 

I'm not saying that these forums are useless just that if posters first looked for the answers in the scouting progarm, these forums would have far less traffic and posters would have far more accurate info.

 

 

Bob White

 

[NeilLup]

Hello Bob White,

 

I know that you can't "fail" an SM Conference.

 

YOU know that you can't "fail" an SM Conference.

 

But the Scouts don't know that.

 

And their parents don't necessarily know that.

 

My suggestion related to avoidance of anything which could cause dinner table gossip, back room chatter, etc.

 

Caesar's wife and all that.

[Bob White]

Could they be told?

[evmori]

I like acco's take. When my son was advancing & I was SM, I too defered the SM conferences to ASM's for the same reason. That way, no one can point the finger & say there was any favoritism. I know it is not in any BSA policy. But it makes sense.

 

Ed Mori