another BOR question

[SagerScout]

Hi, everyone, me again. Thanks for your responses on the Reluctant SPL. I've got another question for you:

 

Another boy is up for first class. One of the requirements in his book is not signed off (the one about finding your way without a compass). He has had a SM conference. He has also worked very hard on his swimming this summer but as far as I know has not actually completed the swimmers test in front of anyone - but the SM decided he was a good enough swimmer based on observing him in the poot. The committee questions him and although he knows the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, he doesn't have a clue how to find the north star nor can he think of any other reasonable navigation plan. Committee says to him he should go figure that out and then come and see them again and they'll pass him.

 

Is it just me, or should the SM have held this boy out of BOR until the two requirements are genuinely and for sure met? I don't want to be a troublemaker but it seems to me that passing kids who have not actually met the requirements denigrates those who really try.

 

I don't suppose it matters but this young man is as cute as can be, and most adults really like him (including me). Sometimes it seems to get him out of stuff as he is small and appears young and frail.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

It's not just you. I agree. BUT...the BOR chair should not even schedule the BOR if all of the requirements were not complete.

[Bob White]

"It's not just you. I agree. BUT...the BOR chair should not even schedule the BOR if all of the requirements were not complete."

 

That is incorrect. The Scoutmaster Handbook, Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and the Advancement Procedures Policies and Procedures manual, all state that the Board of Review is not only held when a scout is ready to advance. It can be done any time, and can be an especially efective tool to use when a scout is not advancing.

 

Remeber that the BOR job is not to test the scout. The Board is to confirm that all elements are completed before advancement, that the scout is growing in the values of the Oath and Law, and to evaluate the troop program and leadership with input from the scout.

 

In this case the Board of Review rather than test the scout on finding directions could have set a goal with the scout as to when he was going to learn how to do it, what his learning resources might be and when he would apply it so that his learning could be tested.

 

They could also raise the question of how he passed his swimming and when the swimmtest was actually done. The scout could be asked if he thought being passed without actual doing the test that is in his handbook was being trustworthy or obedient, and what would be a more scout-like way to complete advancement requirements.

 

They could then tell the scout what is needed to complete in order to finish his rank requirements and then discuss how he likes the troop, what he would like to see improved and what he personally would be willing to do to make the program better.

 

So you see the BOR is one of the two personal conference tools we use to help the scout learn and grow. it is not for testing or retesting scout skills.

 

I hope this helps you SagerScout.

 

Bob White

 

 

[FScouter]

Part of a BOR is to find out what kind of experience the boy is having in the troop. Through that discussion the committee members sitting on the board get a feeling as to how well a job the Scoutmaster is doing. That could lead to a discussion with the SM about how he determines when rank requirements are met.

[Fat Old Guy]

There are some kids that I wouldn't have trouble signing off on their swim test without doing a formal test. For example, the kid who swam five miles (without a break) in a "Swim-a-thon" for charity and is one of the stars of the local club's swim team.

[saltheart]

As already mentioned, BOR's should not be used only for rank advancement when the Scout has completed requirements. They can be used as Bob indicated, although I believe the SM conference is a far more productive method of review, conversation, and encouragement for the Scout. After all, the BOR does not serve as mentor and guide for the Scout, only the SM can do that.

 

Aside from that, one quote concerns me...

 

"The committee questions him and although he knows the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, he doesn't have a clue how to find the north star nor can he think of any other reasonable navigation plan."

 

This says to me that the BOR is 'testing' the Scout. The BOR is not, and has not been for a great many years, a final test of skills for rank advancement. Any testing for rank advancement is supposed to be accomplished and completed satisfactorily before the BOR. Testing (or retesting) at the BOR is not appropriate. And quite frankly, it can be a very fine line between asking a Scout a question or two about a skill, and placing the Scout in the position of thinking he is being retested.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Testing (or retesting) at the BOR is not appropriate."

 

The problem is that there seems to be no final check or balance. What if the person doing the signing off is one of those "well, he tried really hard so let's give it to him types"? What if the BOR knows that the Scout's dad did 99% of the Scout's job as QM?

 

The BOR needs to be more than just a bunch of happy talk questions. How do you like Scouting? What was your favorite Merit Badge? A BOR should be given the lattitude to pursue any line of questioning if they determine that there has been a breakdown along the line.

 

 

[evmori]

The original post said this requirement wasn't signed off in his book so the BOR was completely within it's right to question him about it.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

"The original post said this requirement wasn't signed off in his book so the BOR was completely within it's right to question him about it."

 

Yes, but only about if the requirement was completed, when it was completed, and who witnessed it that is authorized to sign the testing.

 

What the Board is not supposed to do is test or retest the scout on the skill. Their job is to evaluate the rowth of the scout. To say that "the BOR does not serve as mentor and guide for the Scout, only the SM can do that." is not true according to the resources and training of the Boy Scout program. The BOR is one of two personal growth conferences that is done during the advancement program the other being the Scoutmaster Conference.

 

Bob White

 

 

[dsteele]

Fat Old Guy said:

 

"There are some kids that I wouldn't have trouble signing off on their swim test without doing a formal test. For example, the kid who swam five miles (without a break) in a "Swim-a-thon" for charity and is one of the stars of the local club's swim team."

 

I found myself nodding in agreement at the above and then remembered that the BSA swimmer's test has two very important safety components that most people aren't aware of. This is in no way intended to be a slam against Fat Old Guy.

 

Remember that the swim test begins by having the Scout jump feet first into water that is over his head. Why? Because some Scouts do not know how to come back up to the surface. Believe me. I've seen it. They sit on the bottom until someone comes to pull them out. They may be able to swim like fish, but once sunk . . . they're sunk.

 

Also, to be a BSA swimmer, they must be able to float. My guess is that Fat Old Guy used 5 without a break because you'd have to be a heck of a swimmer to make it that far -- but let's use it as an example. Let's say a Scout can swim 5 miles without a break, but what if he had to go 5.2 miles? Wouldn't floating come in handy for the rest?

 

In a council I once served, there was a band group that wanted to rent the camp. We agreed upon a price, but they refused to have their youth and adults go through the BSA swim test and opted to go to another non-profit's camp rather than submit their people to our swim test requirements.

 

They fully enjoyed the waterfront at the other non-profit's camp. Until one of their members drowned. It was a sad story and fully hammered into my head the need for swim tests.

 

DS

 

[silver-shark]

"The problem is that there seems to be no final check or balance. What if the person doing the signing off is one of those "well, he tried really hard so let's give it to him types"? What if the BOR knows that the Scout's dad did 99% of the Scout's job as QM?"

 

I agree Fat Old Guy. This is a problem in many troops, but the time for checks and balances is BEFORE the requirement is signed off. I am in the process of making a proposal to our troop that we start a training program for anyone that wants to be able to sign off on requirements, whether they be adult or boy.

 

This training program would clearly define the process of training and testing, as opposed to the large group training and signing off that happens all too often.

 

It would end with the person that will be signing off, acknowledging that not only are they responsible for ensuring that the requirement is fully understood upon signing, but that the person signing is accountable for making certain.

 

In regards to the purpose of a BOR. It seems to me that this is the committees version of the SM Conference, and their opportunity to see the overall program, including the performance of the SM and supporting role of the committee, in the eyes of the scouts, thus creating a checks and balances of the overall program.

 

[Bob White]

What if the BOR knows that the Scout's dad did 99% of the Scout's job as QM?"

 

Determining this is not the BOR's responsibility. if the troop leadership signed-off on the requirement for 'actively serving in a leadership position" then the requirement is met. If the committee feels that the leaders should not have signed that then that is an issue for them to take with the leadership. They can ask the scout if he felt he fullfilled the required and how but once the book is signed there is no going back.

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy]

"This training program would clearly define the process of training and testing, as opposed to the large group training and signing off that happens all too often."

 

The problem that I see is that even if leaders, both youth and adult, have gone through training too many are still willing to sign off on half-baked attempts at doing the task. Why? It could be that they don't have the backbone to support the requirements. It could be that they don't want a confrontation with the parents. It could be that they are afraid if the kid doesn't pass, he'll quit.

 

How many times have we all heard something like, "He's been working on that knot for weeks, can't you sign him off so he won't be behind his friends?"

 

"but once the book is signed there is no going back."

 

So if a Scout joins a troop and Dad, who owns the local bike store, gives the SPL a 75% discount on a new BMX bike which in turn prompts the SPL to sign off on everything in the new Scout't book, all the way to 1st Class, there's no going back even if the BOR knows what happened?

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"Remember that the swim test begins by having the Scout jump feet first into water that is over his head. Why? Because some Scouts do not know how to come back up to the surface. Believe me. I've seen it. They sit on the bottom until someone comes to pull them out. They may be able to swim like fish, but once sunk . . . they're sunk."

 

Hmmmmm . . . I've never seen that. I've monitored more than a few Navy swim tests. You'd be surprised how many sailors aren't good swimmers but they all knew how to fight their way back to the surface.

 

 

[evmori]

Bob,

Once again you agree with me! But only to a point. If the requirement hasn't been signed off then the board can ask anything it wants about that requirement to ensure the Scout knows what he is to know to have that requirement signed off. And providing the SM has given someone on the board the authority to sign off on rank requirements then this requirement could be signed off.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10