Summer camp issue/concern

[FScouter 24]

Son, whether one personally feels a particular word is "bad" or not isn't the point. Within the walls of your own house you can watch any TV program you want and you may use any language you want as long as your parents are OK with it. But when you leave your house you enter into a world full of lots of different people some of whom will find that kind of language to be offensive. It's kind of like BO. If you don't wash your armpits for 3 weeks straight it may not bother you any. But the person you sit down next to may think different. A Scout is courteous and considers the feelings of those around him.

[dScouter15 11]

FScouter -

 

I see your point, but I think you also need to consider how society as a whole views certain words and behaviors. Society just does not regard "butt" as a "bad word." Granted, you have to take context and the situation into account, but I would say that an overwhelming majority of people (of all age groups) don't think "butt" is too bad. In this case, it seems silly for punishing scouts for using a word that most consider OK. Especially the type of punishment that this lady allegedly dealt out - it definitely doesn't fit the alleged offense. Also, if scouts had used this type of language around other adults, or even in conversation with other adults, the public apology just seems silly.

 

Now, because a scout is courteous, it would make sense for these scouts to say to themselves, "selves, Mrs. Jones doesn't like this type of language, so lets not use it around her." However, I'd still argue that this lady is maybe being a little too sensitive, and trying to impose an unnecessarily strict set of guidelines onto her scouts.

[Gonzo1 10]

dScoutr,

I don't think it's butt so much as the it is "suck" or the overall tone and attitude.

 

I have overheard at summercamp older scouts in another troop as I walked by one called another an **shole, I said "watch the language fellas, a scout is clean" and they said "yes sir, we're sorry" and went about their business.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, da language wars, eh? I wonder what she'd make of my accent and cow jokes?

 

Me, I've always been more into what a lad means by a word, rather than the word itself. Perfectly possible to say "Joey, you're a nice boy" in a way that merits a stern talkin' to .

 

On the surface, it seems like a combination of a relatively inexperienced leader who doesn't have a knack for workin' with teens, coupled with teens who haven't yet figured out ways of workin' with an inexperienced leader. Yeh can always tell the inexperienced leaders by the silly stuff like "contracts" and such. Oath and Law are enough, eh? Besides, yeh can never write enough fine print into a contract to manage all da things a smart bunch of kids can think of .

 

I'd share the concern with your SM. Could be this person needs some more coachin', or might be better working with the NSP . Then I'd tell your DS that you expected more of him. Mrs. Fussbudget is an adult leader, and he should be polite and kind at least, even if she hasn't yet earned his respect.

 

Then I'd help your DS to brainstorm different strategies for him and his friends to use when dealin' with an inexperienced "boss." Teach 'em how to be sophisticated and manipulate things in a polite way. Things like how to challenge a leader appropriately rather than just takin' pot shots. I reckon he's goin' to see similar "bosses" at some time in his life, and will thank you for helpin' him learn the skills to deal with 'em politely and effectively.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[BrotherhoodWWW 10]

"....the lowest 2%..." Seems to me a rather arrogant statement. I have a mid level management job in a blue collar industry and the aforementioned language is normal everyday speech for a significant segment of our population. It is courteous to consider others feelings and sensitivites to certian words in our language but IMNSHO it is absurb to change just because a minority may be offended. This is not to say that we should intentionally offend others but those offended might want to consider for a moment that no offense was intended. Their being offended is mostly a matter of their overreaction and insensitivity to others expressions. Scouts should strive to have a richer vocabulary and be able to use more exact adjectives, but an occasional sucks seems quite appropriate to me. This could have been handled in a different way so that no one got their feelings bruised.

[CalicoPenn 729]

If I hear a boy say "my knife sucks", my first reaction isn't going to be to jump all over him for his use of the word. My first reaction is going to be to ask him why his knife sucks then ask what he's going to do about it once I get the answer. If he tells me it won't cut anything or is too dull, he's not going to continue to use the knife until he sharpens it. If he tells me the blade or the handle is loose, he's not going to continue to use the knife at all.

 

An experienced Scouter would look beyond the word choices of the scouts (unless it's one of the really offensive words (ie Carlins 7 words you can't say on TV) and drill down to the real issues.

 

I wonder - what would your reaction be if you were a parent called to pick up your son from summer camp because of behavioral problems and after driving 100+ miles to pick him up you learned that the behavioral problem was that your son used the word "sucks"? I know what my reaction would be, and I guarantee that the whole camp (not campsite - I mean the whole camp) would learn words that would make a longshoreman blush.

 

Calico

[SSScout 1616]

" I know you think you know what I meant when I said what I thought I meant, but I'm not sure I think you know that what I meant is not what you think you heard"

Or something like that.

 

It is the sexual connotation that upsets people. I always try to point out that (more often than not) what the boy is saying has nothing to do with what he MEANT to say. I encourage precision in language.

Knives can't suck. They have no capability to produce vaccuum. If the knife is less than satisfactory in achieving its purpose

(?cutting? turning screws? hinge loose?), then say that.

 

Wanna really upset folks when they insult you? Don't return epithet with similar, instead correct their usage. The literal, accepted meaning of the words is often IMPOSSIBLE, if not undesirable.

 

Adult leaders do what? Set examples to follow...

 

"Get your curly, greasy haired head over here and bring the rest of you with it!"

 

"Man, this knife is really poor. Dull enough to pound nails".

 

"Jeff, if Mr. K asked me to point out the best fire builder in the Troop, I'd ask you to come over and then say 'look for someone who doesn't look like this'".

 

((overheard))

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

I was thinking about this thread the other day. We took my son and a friend of his to an amusement park for the day. The car ride was rather lengthy and I ended up being privy to all sorts of conversational delicacies from the boys in the back seat, most of which I did my best to ignore. The friend (generally a nice kid but with few "rules" in his life) seems to have a desire to label everything as "Mo-Fo" cool/awesome/dumb/ etc.. I found that offensive, particularly since he wasn't relying only on the much abbreviated version I just typed here. After a while I turned around and asked him exactly whose "Mother" was he referring to? Because I didn't suppose he'd talk to his own mom that way? He turned about 10 shades of red, apologized, and watched his language (at least, around me) the rest of the day.

 

If it had been my kid using objectionable language and I hadn't been there, I hope someone else would have called him on it too. But yeah, a written rule book and threats of sending someone home do seem a bit over the top unless there was a lot more to the story.

[mtm25653 10]

I do correct other kids when they say something inappropriate.

 

On the way to a basketball game, I asked everyone how their day had been. One boy said "it sucked". I told him I knew he had a better vocabulary than that, and he proceeded to give me an eloquent 5 minutes, including numerous SAT vocabulary words, on why his day had been bad, laughing the whole time.

[jambo 10]

I am confused...this is at BSA summer camp ? Where is the second adult leader required for this activity ? What is a WOMAN , being an ASM over 15 to 17 year old boys doing here ? Was this a venture unit , or a rehab unit from a juvenile institution ? I think a male leader ( hopefully experience in today's use of our English language ) would handle it as prescribed by some of others on this site. Or, this is an example of our so called " boy run units ", with inexperienced adults just sitting around, baby sitting the juveniles. Read some my other threads...jambo

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

Not to hijack this thread - I won't respond to this issue again here. If someone wants to further discuss, they should spin off. But:

 

jambo, excuse me?

 

If you are suggesting that a WOMAN cannot or should not be involved as an ASM with a troop, then you are really behind in terms of national BSA policy. And if you are aware of that policy and just disagree, I suggest you look around at troops beyond, perhaps, your own. There are darn few troops I know of that do NOT have women in leadership and in many, if it weren't for those women, there would not be any troop at all.

 

And don't tell me women can't be good adult leaders of young men, or that women don't have the same outdoor skills. I've seen plenty of amazingly skilled women do both. And I've also seen plenty of guys do both poorly. This isn't a gender-based issue. It is an issue of who has the skill, the time, and the willingness to serve our youth. We simply haven't got the luxury of telling slightly more than half the population that they "can't" for no good reason.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Jambo, what's worse is that from what I have been told some states actually allow females to vote and own property! As Kurtz would say, "the horror, the horror"

 

Youth and language has always been a issue. Who can forget Mayor George Shinn telling his daughter Zaneeta to watch her phraseology?

 

How many Twilight Zone fans do we have? In the movie version of "Its a Good Life", how does Kathleen Quinlan's charactor break free of Anthony's tyrrany? By telling him he is behaving badly and setting boundaries. It's what kids need and desire and not to do so creates more Anthonies

[jambo 10]

Dear Lisa,or is it bob ? Some of us old timers must have touched your nerve ? I apologize ? Please read my statement carefully. I did not imply that women can not serve as leaders in the Scouting organization. I have seen them in cubing, district level, on committees, regional,, National and International level, and they are doing a fine job. In today's world, where we have many fatherless youth, we need that MALE role figure, where our boys can look up to, and emulate to. A woman is great, to be the mother figure, but not in authority of 14-17 old boys. I am a male, and I stand up for manhood ! Three cheers for Scouting ! ...jambo

 

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Jam (or is it bo?)

 

Fortunately National does not agree with you, nor do most Boy Scout Troops, High Schools, or just about any other place you could mention.

 

As to the original thread - The ASM went way overboard with the public displays and threats. Could be that is her personality and it will not improve. Hopefully with training and a friendly discussion with the SM her attitude and technique will improve.

 

Where were the other adults from the Troop at camp? Why did no one talk to her there?

 

Could it be there was more to the story than simply bad language and unruly behavior?

 

[Mrw1 10]

As a mom and someone who has been to camp with the troop as acting SM and been involved with the troop for many years:

 

If the language is bad, I can tell the boy involved that I do not appreciate tha language and he should choose other words to use in my hearing. If there is a question about that, I tell them that even though someone else may allow it, I don't want to hear it. End of story and it generally solves the problem.

 

If the boys were actually told they were to sign a behaviour contract, I would expect that some percentage of them immediately set about trying to find just where her limits were....

 

As an aside, my dad as a young scout in the late 1940's, claims he learned more "interesting language" at scout camp than he heard in the Coast Guard a few years later (or apparently in the fraternity house at college).

 

If this were my troop, I would let it go, but buddy the mom in question up with someone who can help her learn a more moderate response.

 

And tell the boys in question that they still need to respect the other people around them. And point out to them that they will always have co-workers that will get on their nerves for various silly reasons and that they need to learn to get along with people, even the ones they might not like so well.

 

I had to tell my younger one this about our current SM when he started. And they both eventually came to an understanding about who was reasonable when and learned to get along fine.