One Oath Initiative

[SSScout 1615]

If this does come to pass, it will certainly illustrate how the BSA is a top down organization.

Was there any polling of the rank and file here? This is not just a change of color of the uniform, but a fairly basic change of program.

Will a Tiger or Wolf really be able to recite (and mean!) the BScout promise and Law? Compared to the CS Promise and LotP, they are pretty long. I remember discussing the CS promise with my Cubs (and son). It made sense to them, but only after a little discussion.

(*aside* Anyone remember promising to "Be Square" as a Cub Scout? That was almost as important as "Gives Good Will")

And there is a good deal of tradition here to consider. Ihope the PTB think (thought?) long and hard about this.

 

[Hal_Crawford 15]

I have to agree with Oaktree about the Sea Scout Oath. A couple of years ago the local Sea Scout Ship sent 4 scouts to present the colors at the district roundtable. The color guard consisted of two guys who looked about 12 years old and two girls who looked like fully grown women. I had to suppress a laugh when they got to the part about "women and children first" because frankly, they looked like they were the women and children.

 

BTW: I think the one oath idea is a lousy one. Boy Scouts are and should be different from Cub Scouts.

[bnelon44 17]

SSScout

 

It was done with a task force of volunteers from around the nation, experts and a couple of staffers. That is the way most changes are made these days. Usually a survey or two also goes out with input going back to the task force.

 

Then it has to be approved by a bunch of standing committees made up of volunteers with staff facilitators.

 

It is a pretty good method of getting things done in this large of an organization and still have input from volunteers.

 

I did post that some experts in children education did advise the task force that Cub age boys would understand the Oath and Law, and their understanding will grow as they grow.

 

I don't have a problem with the proposed changes that I have heard so far. I guess we all will have to wait and see what else will come down the pike.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[bnelon44 17]

acco40

 

The age group we are having problems with are the Cub Scouts and Venturers. The Boy Scouts are increasing in membership.

 

I see a number of issues with the Venturing program as it stands today:

 

1) They aren't considered Scouts (and the Girls by and large really want to be considered Scouts.)

2) They have a convoluted advancement program that is so complex the youth don't fully understand it. So the youth aren't earning the awards.

3. They have a promise no one can memorize

 

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[Eagle92 110]

B,

 

Must respectfully disagree with a few things.

 

1) The Venturing Recognitions, i.e. Bronze, Gold, Silver, ranger, et al were NEVER (emphasis)meant to be advancements in the sense of T-2-1-S-T-Eagle when Venturing split from Exploring in 1998. The were meant to we awards that recognized individuals. Crews didn't have to use the recognitions if they didn't want to. Heck one of the selling points for Venturing back in 1998 for us pros at the time was that BSA gave you a bunch of options that you could use or not use. There was no mandatory uniforms, no advancement, etc.

 

2) The Venturing Recognitions system is quite easy to understand.

 

First you have the standard awards that all Sea Scouts and Venturers can earn.

 

You have have a Bronze Award in which you can earn multiple times because the categories focus on different elements of Venturing Outdoors, Youth Ministries, Arts and Hobbies, Sea Scouts (Ordinary Sea Scout Rank = Sea Scout Bronze since some Ships are not advancement oriented, i.e. my old ship so they got their own), and Sports. These correspond to the five specialty areas of Venturing.

 

Then Gold Award focuses on personal growth through goal setting.

 

Finally Silver focuses on leadership and ethics.

 

ASIDE, whoever wrote the info on Silver Award on the national website here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing/Awards/silver.aspx doesn't know what they are talking about. Silver Beaver is something Scouts earn?!?!?!?!?

 

The you get the Specialty Awards. These allow a Ventuere to really focus and become an expert in an area. They are Ranger for outdoor specialty, Quest for sports, Shooting Sports, and TRUST for the religious/community specialty.

 

The only "Ranks" or advancement in Venturing is the in Sea Scouts with Apprentice, Ordinary, Able, and Quartermaster. And someone placed QM as a specialty award, when in fact it is the highest rank in Sea Scouts, on par with Eagle (ok the requiremetns are actually tougher than Eagle IMHO ).

[bnelon44 17]

Eagle92

 

The bronze, gold, silver awards are advancement recognitions, see section 4.3.0.0 in the Guide to advancement. See how confusing it is?

 

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

I could do without the Law of The Pack.

 

The Cub Scout Promise is fine except that dropping the reference to the Law of the Pack should be done if the Law of the Pack goes away.

 

There's something to be said for progressing to different statements of ideals by age, in my view. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Eagle92 110]

bnelon44,

 

While they may be considered "advancement" now according to the GTA, when Venturing split from Exploring in 1998, THERE WAS NO ADVANCEMENT IN VENTURING (emphasis not shouting) except for Sea Scouts. And even then, so many Sea Scout Ships didn't use the traditional Sea Scout Advancement, that Qualified Seaman and Small Boat Handler badges came about.

 

That was one of the major selling points for Venturing to potential COs: BSA provided a program allowed the CO a whole bunch of options that they could use or not use, i.e. uniforms, Venturing Oath, "Recognitions," camping and HA activities, etc. Additionally the use of BSA facilities, program opportunities, and insurance were other selling points. For example there was info provided at the NLTC that stated ways to approach existing youth groups, i.e. church youth groups, sports teams, etc, and sell them on the benefits of Venturing.

 

And while Venturing was considered "traditional Scouting," with the exception of the Outdoor emphasis crews and Sea Scout Ships, Venturing really was wide open. Again it's possible to get Venturing Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards without ever going camping.

 

The confusion is coming from pros and high up volunteers at national who do not know and understand the Venturing program, but are trying to change Venturing. They keep applying Boy Scout rational to the Venturing program, when it was designed to be a separate, stand alone program that allowed the CO and their youth to be creative in organizing what they want to be and do. Hence the 5 specialty areas, the ability to get Silver without ever going camping, etc.

 

If I can find it, heck gotta see if I still have it, I'll post some stuff from the info given out at the 1998 NLTC on Venturing when it first came out.

[bnelon44 17]

>The confusion is coming from pros and high up volunteers at national who do not know and understand the Venturing program, but are trying to change Venturing

 

You mean the same guys who invented Venturing to begin with

 

I was there at the beginning. And let's be realistic here, we had problems with Venturing from the beginning.

 

I don't know what the Venturing Task Force will come up with for a solution to the many problems with the program as it stands today. But ignoring the problems isn't going to fix them or make them go away.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[Eagle92 110]

Oh, I admit there were problems from the get go, starting off with the name Venturing and calling the units Crews, when the name Venture Crew was already in use as an older scout patrol in a troop, as well as the fact that Sea Scout Ships are divided into crews. Heck som of the preliminary artwork included the color maroon which was associated at the time with Venture Crews/Patrols. Still think the maroon loops would look better than the green on the Venturing uniform.

 

Venturing was rushed out as a result of a lawsuit, although planning for it had started. So lots of challenges did occur. But dedicated volunteers worked out those kinks.

 

But I do stand by my statement: "The confusion is coming from pros and high up volunteers at national who do not know and understand the Venturing program, but are trying to change Venturing."

 

And here is why, a lot of the folks who got Venturing off the ground have either retired, i.e. Holmes, or have been sidelined by folks at national, i.e. Craig Murray et al.

 

Don't know about today, but when I went though PDL-1, not a whole lot of time was spent on Exploring/Venturing. In fact there was a push for councils to have an Exploring Executive (EE) who focused solely on Exploring issues. I was advised by one SrEE NOT (emph not shouting) to become an EE as you get pigeon-holed and there are few advancement opportunities in specializing. So that topic wasn't really covered and to this day not many pros in the upper levels of council management, and if that is any indication national level too, are as familiar with Venturing.

 

Some anecdotal evidence, when the Venturing shorts finally came out, I was told I was not in the proper uniform by a high level volunteer. Grant you this was 2 years after Venturing came out, but even last year I was wearing a Sea Scout uniform at a council meeting, and the SE had to ask about it and Sea Scouts, the second oldest program in Scouting and within Venturing today. From communications I read on various council websites, both my own and others, many equate Crews as coed troops for older kids.

 

Also the entire "one size fits all" training spectrum is viewed by us in the field as the folks at national not understanding Venturing and its needs.

 

Also if I read correctly, BSA has hired outside consultants to coordinate some of this training updates. Consultants may know their stuff, but they may not know BSA program as well as those of us in the field. Grant you the training folks are listening to us in the field, as evidenced by the rescinding of long term trained volunteers having to redo training every time the course title is changed in order to be considered "trained," but it took a howl of protest to do so.

 

Unfortunately the higher up you go in any organization, the less interaction you have in the field with the grunts doing the work.

 

Now getting back to the original post, I am against this One Oath Initiative. Cubs, especially Tigers, and God forbid if the Lion pilot program goes national, do not have the cognitive skills to understand what they are saying in regards to the Oath. As for the Scout Law, while it may be easier to memorize the 15 words of the Law, the LotP is much more appropriate to the entire theme of Cub Scouts.

 

As for the Sea Scout Promise and Venturing Oath, my ship growing up was not-traditional, so we didn't learn it unless we wanted to work on advancement, which most did not want to do. They just wanted to sail. My second ship used more of the traditional Sea Scout program,but that still wasn't an issue since the ship was the equivalent of a summer camp Venturing Crew comprised of staff.

 

Now I do know of two Crews that do the Venturing promise.

 

[emb021 16]

"The bronze, gold, silver awards are advancement recognitions, see section 4.3.0.0 in the Guide to advancement."

 

Let me see if I can clarify this.

 

The Venturing Bronze, Gold, and Silver are Venturing Advancements.

 

They are NOT "ranks". Tenderfoot thru Eagle and the Sea Scout Advancements ARE ranks.

 

There IS a difference.

 

An Eagle Scout outranks a Tenderfoot. A Quartermaster Sea Scout outranks an Apprentice Sea Scout.

 

A Silver Award Venturer doesn't outrank any Venturer.

 

Advancement doesn't necessarily mean ranks.

 

[bnelon44 17]

They may not be called ranks, but there is an order. Bronze, Gold then Silver. Silver is the highest award in Venturing.

[emb021 16]

"They may not be called ranks, but there is an order. Bronze, Gold then Silver. Silver is the highest award in Venturing."

 

Yes, there is an order.

 

Yes, Silver is the highest award in Venturing.

 

Venturing does have an advancement program.

 

But they aren't ranks.

[bnelon44 17]

your right they are not called ranks(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[ideadoc 10]

Since the BSA mission statement includes "...prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." it might make sense if all of the young people were using the same Oath and Law. I can see advantages to a One Oath system and, while I might miss the Cub Scout Promise I think I will get over it.