Scout stealing? how would you handle?

[Exibar 10]

On a recent backpacking trip my scouts and I (I'm SM of the troop) had a great time. Until it came time for the special treat I had planned for them. ahead of time my CC and myself brought in a dutch oven and some fixins for Mountain Dew Cobbler with blueberry filling. This was going to be the cracker barrel treat for the day.

Well, we were going to make two cobblers and we brought in a number of soda cans for the cobblers. After having the troop share the first one, I went off to make the second one, about 20 minutes after the first... I notice there were only 2 cans of soda left out of the 5 that were brought in. I only used one for the first cobbler, so there should have been 4 left.

 

I held up the remaining two cans and asked the scouts if they knew what they were, and why there were only 2 left when there should have been 4. None of them spoke up, I asked again, no-one spoke up. I then proceeded to mention that there is a thief among the troop, and all they have to do is speak up and that will be the end of it. Again, silence....

so, I had all the boys line up, and I had each one of the recite the Scout Law. After the law was recited, It was time for exercise to work off the cobbler they just ate. I repeatedly asked for the scout that took the sodas to come forth and the exercise time could be cut short. No-one came forth after about 15 minutes, so I sent them all to their tents, lights out, no talking.

In the morning I talked to them and told them that I truly did not like ending such a great day on a note such as we ended it. I mentioned that there is a bit of lost trust with them now because no-one came foward, and that the scout that took the soda can come forth privately at any time in the future to tell me.

 

How would have you folks handled this situation where there is a punishment due, but no-one is owning up to it? They wound up having to go to their tents about an hour earlier than I had planned.

 

I have spoken to a couple boys that have asked 'why such a big deal about 2 cans of soda?" I told them it's not about the soda, it's about someone stealing something that is not theirs. What if those 2 cans of soda were a special treat that another scout backpacked in to enjoy after a long day? How would that scout feel if they were taken?

Honestly, if a scout had asked me for a can of soda, I would have given it to him. We only needed 2 cans for the cobblers....

 

thanks all!

 

yis,

Mike B

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Personally I wouldn't say anything more about it.

 

You made your point.

 

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker 132]

I agree with Seattle. I think this might be your seeing red trigger, where if you can step back and analyze the situation before reacting, you may see different.. I am this way about lying. You can lose my trust and respect for a lie, I can blow up similar to you.. Sometimes when I step back I realize I might have over reacted.. Especially if it is pointed out it was a mis-understanding rather then an out-and-out lie. Or it was more seen by the liar as a white lie to smooth over a bad situation or make me feel better, and they were trying to help, but the lie blew up in their face..

 

At this point no one will step up as they would be to afraid to. If others know who did it, they have formed a protective group, Us against Them. Loosing that cohesiveness with your boys is not worth it for two cans of soda.. Look at the whole picture.. Yes, if it is important it is something to make your point about, and let them know you were disappointed and then drop.. The extra exercise, early bedtime, and all the rest, I think was over the top. Because while you were driving home the point about stealing you were losing the close relationship with your boys, they lost trust in you being able to respond and react fairly. This is definitely not the type of relationship you want with your boys, and you may need to do some relationship fixing..

 

I know you thought of the soda as your property and thus this was stealing. But this could be a misunderstanding, where the boys saw it as the evening group dessert and helped themselves to the leftover ingredients, not realizing a second dessert was being made. I had the exact same thing happen at an adult IOLS. We made bubble-up chicken stew with 7-up.. Soda disappeared after the meal was made.. I too didnt need it all, but I did need two extra cans, for something, and was happy they didnt take it all.. I just made mention that I needed these two cans, so please to not take anymore. Also my personal utensils were borrowed without asking when some patrols came up short. I got most the utensils back by running around and looking for them and asking who might have this or that.. But lost a much loved paring knife.. Do I think someone stole it. No.. But someone went home to find a nice paring knife in their equipment, and just never emailed me to tell me they found it. I now know to bring only my crappy kitchen utensils.. Flea market shopping, for camp utensils..

 

Yes, it was my property, but in the eyes of the adults participants, I guess since I was running the training, my equipment became public property.. Mis-understanding.. Something like this could be what happened in your case, but the boys who did the deed, may now be too frightened to speak up.

 

You made your point, though. I doubt your stuff will be taken again, until there are enough newbies in the troop, that dont know the story..

 

 

[evmori 11]

Did you check with the other adults on the trip to see if they took them?

 

Other than that, I agree with Seattle.

[KC9DDI 11]

A couple tidbits: first, you seem to be dealing with a relatively minor disciplinary issue (taking of a couple cans of soda), so if it were me I'd try to let the SPL and PLs make the first attempt and resolving the issue. If they're not having any success, I'd escalate by calling a troop assembly, reminding everyone of the scout Oath and Law, and asking for the culprit to step forward so we can all get on with having fun.

 

My personal preference, in addition to having a talk with the whole troop like you did, is to give the culprit an opportunity to confess in private. I might have said something like "the adult leaders are definitely going to think twice from here out about bringing in special treats for a group of Scouts that doesn't act respectfully. Why don't you guys all get the camp site cleanup up and prepared for an early lights-out. If anyone has anything they'd like to confess or bring to my attention, I'll be over here by my tent." If someone did come forward, thank them for their honesty, ensure they are adequately repentant, and leave it at that. If no one steps forward, go ahead and give the boys an early bed time. The next morning I might recap similar to what you did that I do not enjoy having a great day hiking and camping end like the previous night did, and remind the Scouts that the adult leaders won't be providing any future treats until the stealing issue has been resolved. And then leave it at that. That way, if it was an honest mistake, the culprit still has the opportunity to admit that he was wrong and apologize, but doesn't have to deal with the public humiliation.

 

I'm a big fan of the early bed time / lights out punishment when needed for relatively minor issues, but not so big on troop wide exercises or public apologies, in most cases.

 

I'm not suggesting that you're overreacting, but its clear that some of the boys in your troop think you are. I don't you if they're right or wrong, but I would offer the idea that if they see you reacting strongly to what's a really a pretty minor issue, how will you react to a more serious discipline issue? Will they appreciate that a different problem is more serious or more wrong if the punishment is about the same level of severity? I understand that you're personally pretty upset about this issue, and I've been there too myself, but its important to remember to step back and look at the big picture, and also plan for the future.

 

From this point forward, I'd just drop it unless a Scout brings the issue back up. It sounds like you gave the Scouts a memorable lesson, and it sounds like they got the picture. Maybe its best to just leave it at that and move on.

[SMT224 10]

I've found the most effective way to deal with any issue at the Troop level is though the Scout Leaders - SPL & PL's.

 

If I had noted such a theft, I would immediately talk to the SPL and let him have a meetings with the PL's, who would then talk to the Scouts in their Patrol. My message would be: 1) The sodas are gone. 2) I don't know what could have happened to them. 3) Because the sodas are gone, we will not be able to have cake. 4) Scouts are bound to the Scout Law and therefore need to know and understand they are not allowed to touch anything that does not belong to them, whether it was brought by another Scout, Patrol, or adult.

 

Scouts are much better at enforcing rules than adults. If there is a clear consequence where the selfish action of one or two Scouts affects the Troop, there will be justice.

 

[qwazse 4348]

I would have responded as you, without the oath and law sharade. Rather than lining them up, sit them down in a circle.

 

You expect boys to be trustworthy. On a hike communication is important. "If you didn't pack it in for yourself, don't assume you can have it."

 

Tell them you'll be at your tent, and as soon as you know where your Mt. Dew went, you'll start on cobbler #2.

 

If it was the CC who downed the two cans, public humiliation is in order!

[John-in-KC 311]

Personally, I prefer the approach of SMT224.

 

I also note that the mandatory exercise skirts exceedingly fine the following guidance of the National Council:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Hazing prohibited. Physical hazing and initiations are prohibited and may not be included as part of any Scouting activity.

 

"Bullying prohibited. Verbal, physical, and cyber bullying are prohibited in Scouting.

 

"Constructive discipline. Discipline used in Scouting should be constructive and reflect Scoutings values. Corporal punishment is never permitted."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

If a parent chooses to complain to the Professional Service or the Chartered Partner, you've not helped yourself.

[dg98adams 18]

"I noticed there were only 2 cans of soda left out of the 5 that were brought in. I only used one for the first cobbler, so there should have been 4 left."

 

If you know you packed it in (you or your CC's pack), these might be a moot questions... any chance you only brought 3 cans? Did you find 2 empties (LNT)? Is it possible the CC drank 2?

Did he/she know you wouldn't need them?

 

If I was sure I brought the 5 cans (and put my hands on them to set them out when fixing the cobbler), the empties should be found (LNT). That would be the only "exercise" any one would perform, under the guise of LNT.

 

 

If I did not put my hands on the other 4 cans when I startd the cobbler, then I'd have to consider other options:

 

? Lost on the trail (or someone drunk them on the trail, LNT?)

? Left in the car.

? Some one drunk them in camp, (LNT)

 

I have never read in my SM job description "punishment recommendations", so other than a campfire (honesty, or preparedness on my part) SM minute, discussion closed.(This message has been edited by dg98adams)

[moosetracker 132]

I agree, the allowing the SPL & PL's deal with it would have been preferable. You might do so when it is the loss of scout stuff.. But, it may be more so important with the loss of adult stuff.. That way those doleing out the consequences, are not seen as reacting harsher to it because of whose stuff it is.

 

But, if you do hand it over the the scouts, you may have to set up guidelines about what is and isn't a correct reaction punishment, as you don't want them following the example set on this trip, and have the troop doing hours of excercise in 90 degree weather because Johnny's towel went missing, only to have Johnny find out he forgot his towel in the shower house and it is sitting in the camps lost & found. Not that you were this severe, but kids have a way of seeing what you think of as correct action and enhancing upon it..

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

I guess I too would need to be certain that I hadn't made a mistake if no one 'owned up' to the deed.

I keep an attitude that with boys, I'm dealing with the moral equivalent of raccoons so I watch them carefully. And I have a pretty good sense of when someone is lying to me or concealing something...women tend to hate that about me...but it usually works with the boys.

Yes, once in a while someone's candy bar goes missing. But as for soda, we don't ever use it or bring it along on trips, for any reason. So I guess we dodged that bullet.

[Eamonn 61]

Exibar,

It might be a little too easy for me to sit here and play the role of Monday Quarterback.

I don't know exactly what I might have done.

I don't know the Lads who were there, I don't know how I might have been feeling at the time.

I don't know a lot of stuff.

I think if I had wanted to really know what happened I might have let the Scouts deal with the situation.

The big problem with finding out is what happens next?

How far and what might I have gone and done?

I'm not a fan of punishing everyone because one person let the side down. -But that's just me. I hated it when I was a Lad and I always seen it as being very unfair. Scouts of about 14 and older have a great sense of justice and what's right and what's wrong. Punishing everyone is something that they might see as being just wrong and very unfair. But then again they might just see it as being the cost of supporting their friend by not snitching on him? Boys are strange animals. I know because I once was one.

Talking about strange animals. Some Lads get a real charge from seeing an adult lose his cool. I'm not saying that you did. But there are times when the best thing to do is just let them know that you know what has happened and then just move on, not giving them the satisfaction of seeing you get unraveled in any way.

Much as I know it might be wrong, I tend to remember stuff. So when the next hike comes along and they ask if they are going to get the Mountain Dew Cobbler with blueberry filling.

(Which I've never heard of and would love if you would post the recipe?)I'd be inclined to say that I was sorry but in the light of the disappearing soda last time - Forget it!

Yes I know it's wrong, but sometimes payback is worth it!

 

I loved my Father very dearly.

He was unlike me a very quite man.

When I messed up or did something wrong he had a look, which as I got older I named the "Martyrdom Look". That look hurt me more than anything that he might have done to me. It made me feel like a real scumbag.

If you feel that you did maybe overreact?

You might want to play the "Martyrdom Look" Card.

At the next meeting you apologize to the group, telling them that it really wasn't about the soda, but how much it pained and hurt you to lose the trust that you had in them and how you felt let down.

If you play it right, by the time your done they will feel much as I did when my Dad got me with it.

Really, really bad and sorry for what I'd done.

Ea.

 

 

[Exibar 10]

Hi All,

Thank you for the replies. A mixed bag for sure, but the general theme among the majority is that having a discussion with the boys and perhaps the early bedtime would have been enough.

I made for sure that the cans were not misplaced beforehand, and that none of the 4 adults present took one. The last thing I wanted was to accuse the boys of taking them and have them come up simply misplaced.

I have to say that discipline of the scouts is my *very* least favorite part of being a ScoutMaster. It's always the boys that come from homes where they're allowed to run free that are the troublemakers too. What are we, as SM's supposed to do? Those are the boys that need the program more than the others... anyway, I'm getting off topic...

 

Stealing and Lieing are my two hot buttons for sure. A scout is Trustworthy, there's a reason Trustworthy is first in the Law. I can be one of the most forgiving people around, just come clean and be honest about your mistakes with me. It wasn't about *what* was taken, it's that *something* was taken without asking.

 

I want to be the best SM that I can be, the boys deserve that from me. With the help of this forum and my area SM's, experience, and the council training (I used to be a buffalo...) I'm constantly learning and getting better all the time.

 

thank you all for the input!

Mike B

[ScoutNut 147]

Just wondering, you were planning on using 2 cans of soda to make 2 DO dump cakes.

 

Yet you brought 5 cans of soda. What were the 3 other cans for?

 

Were they special treats for the adult leaders?

 

Did you tell the Scouts that the soda was only for the dump cakes, and consumption by the leaders, not for the boys?

 

Are boys allowed to bring "special" food for themselves only on a backpacking trip?

 

You believed the adults when they told you they had not taken the sodas, but not the Scouts? Why?

 

It seems to me that while taking the sodas without at least asking was not the most polite thing to do, there could be more here than just stealing and lying.

 

If all food on the trip was considered to be group, Troop, food, and not just belonging to an individual, and if you did not tell anyone in advance that the sodas were only for adults, a few of the Scouts might have decided to drink the leftovers. They might even have all shared them. Then when you went ballistic on them there was no way in heaven, or the other place, that they would have admitted it.

 

Or - if it was clear that the sodas belonged only to the adults, some of the adults might have drank, what they knew to be extras. Then, when you started questioning everyone, there was no way that they, as a adult, would want to be called out on drinking extra sodas.

 

Or - You brought the extra sodas for yourself alone, did not tell anyone, and when the culprits (adults or youth) saw how mad you were they were way to embarrassed to speak up.

 

I would consider the issue closed, and not peruse any other Troop wide punishment or recriminations.

 

I would also make sure to not bring extra goodies on camping trips that were not for general use, unless everyone had the same option to bring their own extra goodies along. Then make sure everyone knows that extra goodies are the personal property of the person who brought them, and not available to the Patrol, or Troop in general.

[Scoutfish 16]

"Exibar,

It might be a little too easy for me to sit here and play the role of Monday Quarterback.

I don't know exactly what I might have done.

I don't know the Lads who were there, I don't know how I might have been feeling at the time"

 

I agree with this line of thinking from Eamonn.

 

And I know( well remember ) from being a kid once myself that most young men would rather do extra punishment than to admit to what could have been an honest mistake or just not thinking about something.

 

 

"I held up the remaining two cans and asked the scouts if they knew what they were, and why there were only 2 left when there should have been 4. None of them spoke up, I asked again, no-one spoke up."

 

At this point, IF it was a scout, thety may have been totally willing and wanting to tell you, as soon as they could catch you by yourself or at least out of earshot.

 

"I then proceeded to mention that there is a thief among the troop..."

 

WEll, any chance of a scout admitting to what could be an honest mistake is severely hurt now. Without pinpointing him, you already called him out as a thief.

 

 

" and all they have to do is speak up and that will be the end of it. Again, silence..."

 

End of the discussion about who the thief was, or that the thief took it, or would there be an opportunity for an explanation?

 

 

And yet, it's still IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY!

(caps for emphasis)

 

Now, like Eamonn said, it's real easy to pick your reation apart. And hindsight is 20/20.

 

The one thing i would have done differently, and might have changed everything is if you asked the "thief" to think about it and that they had 24 hours to come forward to you privately OR that they could talk to the PL or SPL in the same confidence and without fear of repercussion while in the field.

 

And I'll readily admit that I am a Cub Scouter, so the dynamics may be different with a troop, but we don't make a huge deal about stuff in the field short of actually physical violence or threats involving physical violence or imminent harm.

 

Then again, mom or dad is usually there to do some whooping if it comes to it.

 

Biggest point I,m trying to make is this: Alot of boys in this age range would rather get their butts whipped than to face the embarrassment of admitting they stole it or just took it by mistake or misunderstanding