OldGreyEagle Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 why would anyone chase away a source of kolachy,Czernina, Kielbasa or Pierogi? My Grandmother and Grandfather were Polish. They tried to only speak English but many of their friends were much more comfortable speaking Polish so they spoke Polish with friends I can see (and hear) the MSNBC headlines now, Mothers Kicked out of BSA Cub Pack for speaking Polish Just what I want to see and hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BartHumphries Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 What's the difference between two parents who only like to chat with each other and go off to the side to talk and two parents who only like to chat with each other and do so right there in Polish? Either way, the two parents don't really like to mix with the other parents. While disappointing, it doesn't really sound like a problem to me, although I'm not there so your situation might be different from the imaginary situation that only exists in my head. Possibly the, "Can you stop speaking your ethnic language when you're around me because I don't understand it and I find it offensive" offended the two parents in question. Have the other parents tried learning even a modicum of Polish? I've found found that even learning just enough to say, "Hello! How are you?" and "I'm fine, thanks." in another language really helps start a friendship and shows that you at least care somewhat. English, Norwegian, Spanish, French, German, Armenian, Russian, I'm definitely not fluent in all those languages, but I can at least greet people warmly and ask them how they are. I've also learned how to say, "I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your language, I only speak English." Anyway, if you have two parents that don't like mixing with the other parents, so what? As long as they do what they're "supposed" to (get their boys to activities on time, when all the parents are supposed to participate in some activity they do so, etc.), what's the big problem? So they're not great friends with the other parents, that's ok, not everyone can be friends with everyone else and while it is a bit disappointing it's not really cause to be ejecting people from the den/troop/crew/whatever, in my opinion. That being said, again, I'm not there, so your situation might be different from what I'm imagining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle707 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Here's what it boils down to: would their conversation still be disruptive if they were speaking in English (are they distracting the boys from activities, etc)? If not, then your parents shouldn't worry about it. Your CM also should NOT under any circumstances consider splitting the pack. If these few parents continue to raise objections about the Polish-speaking mothers then they need to be told "we are an inclusive pack and, if this bothers you, you may be better off finding a new pack for your son." As a Scouter who speaks English, Finnish, and Japanese, I think it is offensive to even suggest that someone's choice of language is disruptive in and of itself. If conversations are occurring at proper times, then the only "disruption" a foreign language can create is curiosity and, as has been mentioned previously, that is exactly why we offer the Language and Culture belt loop. In fact, given the requirements of the belt loop, why not devote a den meeting to earning it? Let the two Polish mothers go over the requirements with the Scouts. It's an olive branch to the parents (as an apology for the harassment they've dealt with) and a great learning opportunity for the Scouts in your den. Final note (with regards to my choice of words): If they are being bothered for their choice of language, and not for being disruptive, then they ARE being harassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grmaerika Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I think you are going to just have to get over the language thing. I like the language belt loop idea.Engage them with teaching the Den some Polish. It will probably be alot of fun.And have them bake you some Polish cookies,yum! Then you could even go one step further and have the whole Den learn some ASL. Very useful, and that will be a language that will cross alot of barriers.This is America, and people come in a steady stream from elswhere.It seems there could be something positive to come out of the situation.English only never works. I've had a couple employers that that tried to enforce that.People are going to communicate in the language they are comfortable with, unless necessity dictates otherwise.(or the boss is hanging around). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grmaerika Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I could not help myself from expounding on this topic of communication and language.There is a very cool website called Hand Talk: American Indian Sign Language. Scouters should find it very interesting. It tells about a conference that was held by an Anglo that brought leaders from many different Indian tribes together who shared no common spoken language. They did share one common Sign language. Plains Indian Sign Language. It was an attempt to record and preserve this common language. There is some great video on there.A must see for any language nerd and just a fascinating story.Languages go extinct just like animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 These parents are an incredible potential resource for you, not a liability, unless you insist on making them into one. In Tigers, parents are deeply involved in their sons' cub experience. Expecting the parents to go elsewhere is just not likely going to work. Of course if they're being very disruptive because they won't stop talking (in whatever language) that becomes an issue, but I am supposing that this is chatter that takes place while the boys are working on a project together with parents, and not impeding the projects from occurring. About the language issue: I've lived in countries where there were few Americans around to talk to in my native language (although most of the time, there were plenty of locals who spoke English, but that's just not the same). I can recall being very happy to occasionally get together with other Americans so as to relax back into my own language again. And, while learning those other languages, I've felt incredibly frustrated because I couldn't (and still can't, in some cases) effectively communicate my thoughts, views, wants, needs, etc. It can be humiliating and deeply, deeply frustrating to be in that spot. It is worse when others assume you aren't smart, or coherent, or multi-faceted because of the language barrier, and people tend to treat you like some kind of child as a result. Sometimes you just want to scream (or cry), which of course, makes it worse. I also speak some fairly obscure languages with relative fluency, like Danish. When I occasionally run across another Danish speaker, I'm usually overjoyed that I have someone I can converse with in Danish. And ways of expression, even some personality aspects, really do "translate" differently from one language to the next. So there are some things I can better express in Danish, than in English. So I can imagine that these mothers were very happy to find another to speak Polish with, and also that they may feel most natural or comfortable communicating certain ideas, ways of thinking, etc., in their native languages. I also imagine it seems quite natural to them that they communicate with their children in their native tongue. Many multi-lingual people do this intentionally to impart an inherent understanding of the language on their children, and others do it because they're just more comfortable in that language. Obviously, the women feel excluded by the larger group. Trying to forbid them from speaking their native language is NOT going to improve upon that. The larger group could be a little more understanding and inviting. Ask these moms (*and their boys!) to help you in some special way, like maybe sharing a favorite food or tradition, or teaching ALL of the boys a few words or phrases of Polish, or learning some traditional Polish games or songs. Quit complaining about them for speaking another language, and see them as a resource and as possible friends too. And who cares if one of them has a thing going w/ the CM! Unless you are married to the CM, that's a whole separate kettle of fish and not your problem in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 > We'll just use the "Language and Culture" belt loop requirement above and ask these ladies to teach the Cub Scouts how to say "Please be quiet and pay attention." in Polish..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 >>"Does anyone know if the Scouts have any guidance on whether or not adult partners of Tiger Cubs should be allowed or discouraged from speaking foreign languages with each other at den meetings?">"I believe that it is rude to speak foreign languages when you are sharing a space with other people who don't speak the same, like at a table during a den meeting. While there are exceptions, parents should try to speak english. If they want to speak something else they should excuse themselves first and maybe step away if need be. Of course, they can speak anything they want when we are just standing around and not trying to work together.">"The funny part about all of this is the two Polish moms also complain that the other moms make them feel unwelcome, especially my wife and the den leader. The Poles keep to each other and make no effort to try to join in, so I don't know what they expect." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemlaw Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 >>>>>I think first of all, the CM needs to back the heck off. Split the PACK? Really? What, into Polish speaking dens, and non-Polish speaking dens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattlePioneer Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 > We'll just use the "Language and Culture" belt loop requirement above and ask these ladies to teach the Cub Scouts how to say "Please be quiet and pay attention." in Polish..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blancmange Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Can I go to the Polish Blue & Gold? Or am I stuck going to the non-Polish one? Only if you bring the golumpki! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckytom Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks very much for all of the thoughtful replies, everyone. I'll cut to the chase: it's disruptive for both reasons. The chatting is disruptive no matter who is doing it. I've often had to walk over to or glare at the Tiger table to get many of the moms to be quiet when the sign goes up. But moreso, as both of the Polish moms speak english fluently, they use their native tongue in a way that excludes others. It's a little difficult to describe. One of those "you had to be there" situations. They speak english much of the time, but then break into Polish, and often it's a little too obvious that they are talking about someone directly, making the object of their chat feel uncomfortable. Of course they don't do that every time they speak Polish , but they do it often and obviously enough to have caused 6 other moms to complain about it. Again, it's difficult to describe the subtle nature of this. The language facilitates their ability to exclude others in their conversations, therefore it's disruptive. And then they say they don't feel welcomed by the other moms. In my experience, Poles are fiercely ethnocentric, so it was a big mistake for the Cubmaster to have told them who was complaining about them. It made the whole situation much worse. Darn, I was hoping that the scouts had a clear policy on this so I could just follow the rules and be done with it. I agree that our diversity could be a great benefit to our pack, but not when it's used to seperate rather than share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemlaw Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 >>>>but then break into Polish, and often it's a little too obvious that they are talking about someone directly, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blancmange Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Darn, I was hoping that the scouts had a clear policy on this so I could just follow the rules and be done with it. It doesn't have to be a National policy. Chartering organizations can set their own membership standards. Just have a meeting with your Chartered Organization Representative or Institutional Head and explain to them how this has become a problem. Convince them that they should adopt a policy prohibiting the speaking of foreign languages at pack or den activities. If they refuse to comply, they could just be expelled from the pack. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Czy harcerzy pełnego zrozumienia Angielski? Jeśli nie, a może rozmawiać z matek jest konieczne. Jeżeli te harcerzy zrozumieć angielski, nie jest to język publikacji, ale zakłcenia wydania. I had two Polish Scouts (in that organization, both boys were US citizens) and that was educational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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