Moving to BS without Arrow of Light

[cdroberts94]

We had a group of 7 boys show up for their first Boy Scout meeting this week. They all bridged at the Blue and Gold last week. However, one did not earn his Arrow of Light; he just joined cub scouts last fall. He, of course, came along with all of his friends and I don't think anyone thought about the fact that he is not yet 11 and has not finished 5th grade. I didn't even notice until I was inputting his application in Troopmaster. He turns 11 March 13 so he can be official very soon, but I wonder how other troops handle situations like this. I can see this happening more frequently with the push in our council (maybe in others) to move boys on to Boy Scouts by Feb.

 

Carole

[Eagle92]

CD,

Welcome to the forums! In referecne to the Webelos crossing over without AOL, Here are my thoughts.

 

#1 AOL is not required to join Boy Scouts UNLESS the boy is not 11 OR 10.5 and completed 5th grade.

 

#2 Since He has not completed 5th grade, earned AOL, or is 11, he is STILL a Webelos

 

#3 Webelos do need to visit certain scouting functions, so he can visit and participate to a limited degree until 11, then fill out the application and HAVE FUN

 

#4 Since his b-day is so soon it may have been best to "crossover" with his buddies. Sometimes the symbolic Crossover is needed. We do that with our Web. IIs at Webeloree.

[MNBob]

Interesting. I had never thought about that.

 

BSA requirement:

Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

 

My son is in 5th grade but his birthday is in August. He is crossing over on March 7 but he will have his Arrow of Light. It didn't occur to me that he would not have officially been able to join without his AoL until school is out in June. I think BSA may need to tweak the requirement wording as I doubt that's the true intent. Maybe they need to change the requirement to being in the 5th grade at cross over time if the Scout has not earned AoL.

[nolesrule]

"I think BSA may need to tweak the requirement wording as I doubt that's the true intent."

 

That is most certainly their true intent.

 

The whole point of Arrow of Light is to prepare Cub Scouts to enter the realm of Boy Scouts. Without having earned AOL, the grade/age requirements are in place for a reason.

 

Or, to put it another way, earning Arrow of Light creates an exception to the Boy Scout age/grade joining requirements that allows a boy to join earlier than usual.

 

(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[MNBob]

That is most certainly their true intent.If so I don't see how that is practical. In our Pack when cross over occurs the Web 2 den is finished. What good would it do to make a Scout wait until age 11 or the end of 5th grade, whichever comes first, if he has not earned his Arrow of Light? The den will no longer be meeting and the Scout is not going to be receiving any additional preparation for Boy Scouts. Personally I'd see that as a situation that might just upset parents and make them decide not to join Boy Scouts. (Note: I'm specifically referring to boys coming out of a Webelos program and not someone brand new to Scouting)(This message has been edited by MNBob)

[Lisabob]

MNBob, some packs address this by having boys who don't meet the age/grade/AOL requirement stay with the other Webelos until the end of the year. This might mean being put into the W I den, which might/might not work, depending on the boy in question.

 

Some packs address it by not dissolving the Webelos II den, and running a 2-year Webelos program for all boys who have not yet earned AOL and aren't old enough to join boy scouts in the middle of 5th grade. This can be a challenge if only one or two boys are left in the den after February.

 

Some packs address it by not having separate Webelos I/Webelos II dens at all, which makes some sense since that way, there is always an existing Webelos den and the remaining boys aren't so much "left behind" as they are "still journeying."

 

Some packs address it by telling the ineligible boy to wait on the sideline until the end of school (which doesn't seem like a great solution, since in the intervening months, the boy may lose interest in scouting)

 

Some packs address it by working with the troop to ensure that the boy is included as a "guest" of the troop, until such time as he is old enough to join. This requires a clear understanding that he can participate, but that nothing "counts" toward any ranks or awards until he is officially a member.

 

Those are the approaches I have seen. Some work better than others, depending on the situation.

[Eagledad]

>>Some packs address it by working with the troop to ensure that the boy is included as a "guest" of the troop, until such time as he is old enough to join. This requires a clear understanding that he can participate, but that nothing "counts" toward any ranks or awards until he is officially a member.

[Chippewa29]

My troop had a Scout cross over last year that had joined Cub Scouts toward the end of fourth grade and had a late birthday for his class. He crossed over with his friends, but technically couldn't join until he either go his AOL or finished fifth grade. What we did was let him be a part of the troop with his friends, but we didn't turn in the application. We helped his Webelos leader work with him on his AOL for about two months until he finished it. For his first couple of campouts, his dad had to go with him on the campouts since he was still a Webelos. As soon as he finished his AOL, we turned in his application and he became official.

[MNBob]

I'd guess that Troops around here would be willing to do the last point. It just seems a little silly to me to not address this minor timing issue which only would affect 5th grade boys with spring or summer birthdays.

[Snow_White]

MNBob,

 

What about boys who have never been in Cub Scouts - do you propose that the joining requirements for them be also altered to "be 11 or be in the 5th grade"?

 

(I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to follow along your logic here.)

[nolesrule]

It's only an issue when a Den Leader chooses to terminate the den before the end of the Cub Scout year when not all of his Webelos have earned Arrow of Light. This is a result of the idea that the Arrow of Light (and the crossover) is a group achievement, not an individual one.

 

The idea of the Webelos leader continuing to work with the boy on AoL while being a guest participant in the troop is the way to go if there truly is only 1 or 2 boys in this situation. In the case of a 1-year Webelos, earning AoL is a challenge but not impossible... and it's something the Den Leader and the boy's parents should have at least discussed and tried to set a workable timetable when the boy joined the den.

 

The only time it is truly a timing issue is the case of a boy who completes 5th grade and is not yet 10.5 and does not earn Arrow of Light, meaning he turned 10 in December or later of his 5th grade year.

 

 

Didn't we have a big discussion about this subject a couple months ago?

[Buffalo Skipper]

I certainly see how this could be seen this way, but I agree that the BS age is 11, the special exception being for those scouts who have completed the program for boy scout preperation called Webelos (culminating with the Arrow of Light).

 

Last year, my wife's Webelos den had one scout who joined Webelos as a 5th grader. He could have crossed as an 11 year old in October even before others who had been in Cub Scouts since Tigers but were not yet 11. She worked up a program which (recently described in other threads) allowed this scout to finish his requirements in the minimum 6 months (Webelos Badge and AOL) and cross with 6 months and a week in Webelos). This year my den had the same thing, but with 2 Webelos scouts crossing with AOL 6 months and 2 days after they joined.

 

On the other hand, we had a 5th grader come to check out the den 1 month ago. He was encouraged to participate, but it was made clear he could not complete his AOL and join. His birthday is the same week of the scout in the original post, and he was encouraged to participate in Webelos until the scouts crossed and then attend his first 2 Boy Scout meetings with a parent attending (visiting Webelos) and cross on is b-day (he was recruited by a boy scout in the troop and the moms are friends, so this was not too farfetched). He did not, however return, and we have been told he will visit the troop after he turns 11.

[NealOnWheels]

It is quite simple...

 

Let him be a visitor for the next two weeks and then submit his application.

[MNBob]

A couple of people have now referred to age 10.5. Where is that age mentioned in the BSA requirements?

 

@Snow_White: I mentioned that I'm specifically referring to those 5th grade Scouts who participate in the Webelos program but turn 11 sometime after typical spring cross over time (i.e. after Feb/Mar).

 

@nolesrule: You are correct when you say "It's only an issue when a Den Leader chooses to terminate the den before the end of the Cub Scout year when not all of his Webelos have earned Arrow of Light." But then why do most people always refer to Webelos as being an 18 (or 21) month program? Our Pack delivers our Webelos program with the clear understanding that it runs from June after 3rd grade until Feb/Mar of 5th grade. Do other Packs actually make Webelos a 2 year program from June after 3rd grade until June after 5th grade? Do other Webelos leaders plan to continue holding meetings after the majority of their den has crossed over including quite possibly their own son?

 

 

Anyway this is an interesting topic that I'll discuss at an upcoming committee meeting. As I originally mentioned this "issue" never even occurred to me and because of how our Pack has always operated I just assumed there never was an issue. I'm curious if others in the Pack think we need to worry about it(This message has been edited by MNBob)

[Oak Tree]

>>Some packs address it by working with the troop to ensure that the boy is included as a "guest" of the troop, until such time as he is old enough to join. This requires a clear understanding that he can participate, but that nothing "counts" toward any ranks or awards until he is officially a member.