what *do* we allow youth leaders to decide?

[Lisabob 13]

"we don't see any reason to let the PLC decide on something we've already come to a consensus on."

 

(paraphrasing here because I can't seem to reopen the original thread) "this is not a white/wheat or jam/jelly type of decision."

 

 

You know I hear this, or variations of this, a lot. Not to pick on the original posters, who were writing about something OTHER THAN youth leadership (about whether to allow cell phones at jambo). But sometimes I think that the major reason why the boys don't take youth leadership seriously, is because we adults often don't take it seriously, either. Just saying.

[BadenP 93]

I agree with you Lisabob, the hardest lesson any adult leader has is to not only let the PLC make the decisions but allowing them to fail once in a while. Too often the adults rush in to save the day and push the youth leaders aside, and then wonder why the youth don't take their leadership positions more seriously. You learn to lead by experiencing both success and failure, and sometimes we adults get in the way of that process resulting in the youth feeling that thier ideas have no value.

[Oak Tree 15]

Exactly right. I find that if you engage the boys in serious discussions, they can come to pretty good decisions. Now, if you just let them go with the first thing that pops into their head, that's a different story.

 

I also want the boys to lead as much as possible elsewhere, particularly while executing plans. It would be nice if they did detailed project management style planning, too, but I've come to accept that's just not the strength of any teenaged boys. Adults sometimes have to set the framework, but for decision making, the more you can delegate to the boys, the better. I think you need to move gradually in that direction so that they start to take it seriously before you ask them to make the big decisions, and quite often they need guidance and the adults can have a strong influence through the kind of suggestions they make and the type of questions they ask.

 

For example, one thing I see on the forum about the SPL election is that the SM is often too nervous to let the boys have complete control over the election - concerned that they will elect a goofball or a slacker. And if the troop is adult-run, maybe the SPL doesn't matter all that much, so the Scouts don't care. But in our troop we have no minimum requirements to be SPL and I haven't vetoed anyone from running for the office. But yet the Scouts have never elected an undeserving choice. They know the decision matters, so they take it seriously.

[Eagle92 110]

Great question Lisa. I know growing up, my PLC made 99% of the decisions. Occasionally we were overruled by the SM and/or committee, but, with the exception of one trip, the rationale for being overruled made sense.

 

Now grant you some things were "just assumed," by all, i.e "Indianhead is OUR summer camp campsite," etc and were automatically done by the adults doing the paperwork with no true input from the PLC, but to be honest the PLC would have requested it anyway.

 

As for cellphones, didn't have them back then, but we had the policy of no radios. Only excpetion that I can recall was for summer camp CITs who were not arriving and/or leaving camp with the troop, and the SPL or his designate could bring in a radio to summer camp to keep current with the world and music. Kinda helped when one of our ASMs or MCs, sorry can't remember what position he was at the time, who heard some news and assumed correctly that his reserve unit would be getting called up shortly. And it was.

[jeff-o 10]

To answer the question posed, I'd have to say: "Anything that doesn't put people in danger or compromise the Boy Scout program."

 

As a Scoutmaster, I view my main job as making sure these crazy scouts don't hurt themselves. Other than that, I'm willing to let them try anything they think they can do. And if I think they can do it, I'll push them to help them realize they can do it. The only time I overrule decisions or outright say "no" is when they want to do something that I know is just physically dangerous. If its against Boy Scout policy (not written policy, but the aims of Scouting), I'll try and point out what Scouts is about and get them to see if what they're planning is within the spirit of Scouting. Otherwise, I let them have at it!

[Beavah 205]

Yah, somewhere I once had a bunch of questions that I used with SMs and Committees to see if they really allowed youth leadership or whether they were just payin' lip service. Can't seem to lay my hands on it right now, so I'll try to remember just a few.

 

1) Do the youth leaders sign off on advancement requirements?

 

2) Does the PLC set the calendar?

 

3) Does the PLC set the budget for the troop, and determine how program money is spent?

 

4) Can the Quartermaster dispose of or purchase gear on his own?

 

5) Do the youth leaders have keys to the building/trailer/locker?

 

6) Can the PLC add, subtract, or rewrite troop "policy" for youth members?

 

7) Do the adults ever touch a stove/pot/shopping cart, or are the youth responsible for their own meals?

 

8) Does da SPL present the program to the Committee or does the SM?

 

9) How many times in the last year have yeh knowingly hiked or driven miles out of your way because the lads took a wrong turn and you let 'em?

 

10) If a boy suffers a minor injury, who does the first aid?

 

11) When an event is canceled, who makes the decision?

 

Feel free to add others!

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>As a Scoutmaster, I view my main job as making sure these crazy scouts don't hurt themselves.

[Scoutfish 16]

Great point Lisa!

 

I train all new guys at my company. I found out that sometimes, somethings are easier learned if I just let the guys screw up. Sometimes we learn better from our mistakes than somebody just telling us.

[CA_Scouter 11]

I like Beavah's punchlist... I know we have a ways to go but we are progressiong... here are my answers... IN CAPS ( NO, NOT SHOUTING, JUST SO THE ANSWERS STAND OUT... )

 

1) Do the youth leaders sign off on advancement requirements?

 

YES THEY DO

 

2) Does the PLC set the calendar?

 

PLC PICKS ACTIVITIES, COMMITTEE SETS THE DATES SO THEY CAN COORDINATE WITH THE SCHOOL CALENDAR

 

3) Does the PLC set the budget for the troop, and determine how program money is spent?

 

NO. COMMITTEE DOES ALL THAT, BUT CONSIDERS INPUT FROM PLC OCCASIONALLY.

 

4) Can the Quartermaster dispose of or purchase gear on his own?

 

I THINK THE QUESTION HERE IS NOT 'CAN' BUT 'WILL'. GOT A NEW QM THIS YEAR SO HOPING THINGS WILL BE BETTER...

 

5) Do the youth leaders have keys to the building/trailer/locker?

 

YES

 

6) Can the PLC add, subtract, or rewrite troop "policy" for youth members?

 

YES

 

7) Do the adults ever touch a stove/pot/shopping cart, or are the youth responsible for their own meals?

 

ONLY WHEN WE COOK OUR OWN FOOD. WE HAVEN'T TOUCHED FOOD MONEY FOR PATROLS IN YEARS. ITS ENTIRELY UP TO THE PATROLS.

 

8) Does da SPL present the program to the Committee or does the SM?

 

SM - PLC PARTICIPATES IN DECIDING SKILLBASES THOUGH.

 

9) How many times in the last year have yeh knowingly hiked or driven miles out of your way because the lads took a wrong turn and you let 'em?

 

AT LEAST ONCE LAST YEAR. WRONG TURN ADDED ABOUT A MILE TO OUR HIKE, IT WAS EASY FOR ME TO KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT BUT I PRACTICALLY HAD TO GAG AN ASM. ;-)

 

 

10) If a boy suffers a minor injury, who does the first aid?

 

SCOUTS

 

11) When an event is canceled, who makes the decision?

 

BEEN SO LONG... BUT THE LAST TIME WE CANCELED AN EVENT WE SAW ANIMALS WALKING TWO BY TWO... AND PARENTS DECIDED...

 

Dis kinda fun!

 

 

 

[jeff-o 10]

>>>>>As a Scoutmaster, I view my main job as making sure these crazy scouts don't hurt themselves.

[evmori 11]

What do we allow the youth leader to decide? I think the question should be "What do we let the adult leaders decide?" As adults, we are there to make sure the boys dot their i's & cross their t's and see they don't kill each other.

[Eagle92 110]

CA,

love those answers. LOL. However I would suggest letting the PLC to decide the dates for event as well. It is VERY doable for them, and hopefully easier for yout PLC than mine growing up. Our yearly planning meeting was an all day affair due to the fact that we were working with approx. 6 different HS calendars and I can't remember how many elementary and MS calendars (mostly private schools in the New Orleans Area, and the parochial elementary schools go up to 8th grade). Long day but doable.

[Stosh 3452]

Our boys are given the authority and responsibility to make all decisions within the following guidelines that they have all agreed to.

 

1) Safety first.

2) Look and act like a scout.

3) Have fun.

 

Unless the decision runs counter to any of the above, it's a go.

 

We teach our boys that if an adult says, directs, or "strongly" suggests, that means they must follow. This is not leadership. If they are going to take leadership seriously, they need to functionally lead.

 

We do not have a PLC that directs the activities of the troop. Each PL is responsible for the leadership of his patrol. If they wish to do a patrol activity and can muster the resources and 2-deep leadership of the adults (or are mature enough to go alone) they can do the activity. If more than one patrol wishes to do the same activity, the PL's work it out amongst themselves. Because it is far more difficult to get 2 adults to go to summer camp at different places at different times, they take the easy route of coordinating these resources to coincide at the same time at the same place. However, they are not required to do so if they can gather up the necessary resources to do what they want. If patrol A wishes to go to one camp and patrol B a different camp and there are 4 adults that can make it happen, it happens. If there are only 2 adults available, they need to make a decision based on the resources available.

 

Any patrol member can offer up suggestions as to activities.

 

The "troop" officers are available to the patrols for assistance. If patrol A wants to do an activity, they check with the Quartermaster for available resources based on first-come, first-served. If there is only one dutch oven and it's committed to another patrol, the second patrol needs to reevaluate their situation based on the lack of resources. Either they change their menu or pick a different date, which may cause other problems with lack of 2-adult resources.

 

These kinds of responsibilities and problem solving forces the boys to either actually lead or miss out on a lot of things. Once patrol members realize their patrol is missing out, either they correct their situation or continue to miss out.

 

If a scout can validate their decisions based on the three principles listed above, the adults MUST step aside and let the boy's take the lead.

 

Stosh

[Oak Tree 15]

I'll play with Beavah's questions.

 

1) Do the youth leaders sign off on advancement requirements?

 

Yes. Star and up can sign off on most requirements.

 

2) Does the PLC set the calendar?

 

Roughly, yes. They pick the outings and the months. The adults try to coordinate with all the other calendars.

 

3) Does the PLC set the budget for the troop, and determine how program money is spent?

 

No.

 

4) Can the Quartermaster dispose of or purchase gear on his own?

 

Hmmm. He can, yes. Does he? That's a different question.

 

5) Do the youth leaders have keys to the building/trailer/locker?

 

Yes.

 

6) Can the PLC add, subtract, or rewrite troop "policy" for youth members?

 

Yes.

 

7) Do the adults ever touch a stove/pot/shopping cart, or are the youth responsible for their own meals?

 

The youth are entirely responsible for their own meals. The adults cook as their own patrol.

 

8) Does da SPL present the program to the Committee or does the SM?

 

The SM does, but this is almost a trivial exercise.

 

9) How many times in the last year have yeh knowingly hiked or driven miles out of your way because the lads took a wrong turn and you let 'em?

 

Oh, man. Too many.

 

10) If a boy suffers a minor injury, who does the first aid?

 

If it comes to the awareness of the adults, the adults do it.

 

11) When an event is canceled, who makes the decision?

 

I don't think we've cancelled an event in the last six years. We have moved an event, cut short a couple events, and discussed whether we should cancel events. Typically this is done by the adults, sometimes in consultation with the SPL. Usually this is me, trying to convince the other leaders that the Scouts can handle the situation.

 

I'd add

 

12) Who plans the troop meetings?

 

13) Who runs the troop meetings? Who stands up front at the beginning, calls the meeting to order, and explains the meeting plan to the Scouts?

 

14) Who sends out emails reminding Scouts to be at PLC? Or describing what has to be done for upcoming troop meetings?

 

15) Who sends out PLC minutes?

 

16) Who plans the courts of honor?

 

[Twocubdad 665]

I took a stab at answering Beav's questions, but everything kept coming up "it depends" or "yes, but..."

 

Apparently we just run on a different management style. Truth is, for a lot of these items, no one is making a decision. By design, a whole lot of what we do is by continuing resolution.

 

Schedule, for example. Our default setting is that we camp the first weekend of every month. With a few exceptions, anyone can figure out our schedule in perpetuity. When conflicts arise, they may be brought to the table by Scouts, leaders or parents. Even then the solution is generally to move the campout up or back one week. Our PLC meets the week before the troop committee in order for the PLC to find a resolution and forward it to the committee. The only time this has come up recently was with our Webelos campout last fall. The cub scout pack had a conflict the first weekend of the month, so we simply moved everything to the second weekend.

 

We are on our way to becoming a large troop. This year we have boys on NINE -- NINE! -- different school calendars. (Public schools, Catholic Schools, four different charter schools, two private schools and one church school.) And that's just school. I can't begin to imagine the turmoil which would ensue if we threw a blank calendar on the table and said, "so what do you want to do?"

 

Now WHAT we do the first weekend of each month us totally up to the PLC. My challenge there is to get the boys to come up with new and challenging campouts. The boys are fat and happy doing the same things over and over. I really have to push them out of their comfort zone. This fall we spent two months trying to come up with ideas as a PLC. I finally had the SPL and two ASPLs meet one Sunday afternoon, locked them in the conference room, and wouldn't let them out until they had a plan they could present to the full PLC.

 

Budgets are the same way. The troop budget rarely changes. We do no fundraising, our dues are slightly below average of nearby troops, thus we have very little descretionary spending. Activities are typically paid for a la carte (and that is rarely more than a $10 fee). Patrols are totally self-contained when it comes to cooking. The grubmaster does the shopping, divides the cost among the patrol members then collects the money himself.

 

Quartermaster issues are similar. We have a standard set of patrol gear which is issued by the patrol. Three years ago we bought all new tents and stoves and developed the standard inventory. The ASPL and QM did all the research and made a recommendation to the PLC and committee on what to buy. The only change was the committee made was to get a slightly more durable version of the tents (from the Eureka Apex to the Pinnacle model). Now, if something needs to be replaced or if we have to outfit a new patrol (as we are having to do with the wave of new Webelos coming next month) there is no decision to be made. On the other hand, the PLC has discussed buying stands for the camp stoves. The QM has options for simple wire stands for $20 or more elaborate tables for $60. It's on the PLC agenda for next month.

 

Different strokes for different folks. For our boys and our adults, I think we strike a pretty good balance between the boys making the decisions which affect them -- mainly program stuff -- and the adults handling the administrative details. Could he boys do more. Sure. But it seems to me we've got the 80/20 rule about where we want it.