A Scouter is to be trusted?

[Eamonn]

While I know at times I have jumped in with both feet, wagging the finger when someone has posted some activity that I thought was unsafe or in my view just plain stupid.

Sometimes, I might even have been right!!

I do however feel that we (Many of us, me included.) Are at times a little too quick to find fault in others.

A few years back I attended a week long conference at Philmont Training Center, looking at the delivery of Commissioner Service. One female Council Commissioner seemed to want to make everything about youth protection! Each and every role playing situation she somehow seemed to make into a situation that somehow violated the YP Guidelines.

By the end of the week she had almost send me to the nut-house.I was really happy that I didn't serve the same Council that she did.

While of course some activities are not allowed and some should be held back until the Scouts reach the right age. It does at times seem that we are in a rush to beat people over the head with some sort of rule book. Often when no rule has been broken or when no rule is even there.

When it becomes clear that there is no such rule, rather than just saying "Hey I'm sorry, I was wrong". The fall back is to blame the insurance or lack of coverage. Again most times this is based on a whole lot of balderdash and not based on fact.

For about 12 years I served as a Member of our District Key 3. I seen a lot of units do activities that I knew I wouldn't be involved with. At times I questioned the wisdom in them participating in these events. None were violating any BSA,State, or as far as I know federal laws. Just things that I was not happy with.

When this sort of thing came along. I made the choice to trust in the judgments of the adult leadership in the unit.

Like it or not the CO had deemed that these people were the people they choose to be in charge.

Then of course there are parents.

I know as a parent I want to know what my kid is going to be doing and know that he will be safe doing it. If he isn't I don't have a problem telling him and the adults in charge that he isn't going to participate in whatever the activity was. As a parent I don't need any rules or guideline for this, I'm happy to go with my guy feeling.

Then of course there are the Scouts, while as we all know at times they lack good judgment and many seem to think that they are never ever going to get hurt or harmed. I know a lot of kids who will look at something and say "No way!"

With so many Scouts, so many adults, so many activities there is no way the BSA can have guidelines on everything. So the CO needs to ensure that they have the right people doing the job and doing things that they are OK with. The adult leadership has to be people that we can trust. If we can't trust them? Then they need to be removed.

Parents need to know what their children will be doing and if need be be willing to not give permission.

Districts and Councils need to train the adults and provide the resources as to where the real guidelines can be found and provide kindly people who can explain what the rules are and why they are in place.

There is of course still going to be a few twits who can't be trusted. That's just the way things are!

But rushing to beat good people over the head with rules and regulations that very often just are not there is a disservice to everyone.

Eamonn

 

[Kahuna]

Amen to that, Eamonn, and thank you for stating that so eloquently. It is partly because of this tendency that I sometimes despair of the future of the BSA. I was in the military for 30 years and never heard as much discussion of rules and regulations as we see in this forum.(This message has been edited by kahuna)

[Eagledad]

My wife volunteered me to be our new Cub Master in the month of June and my very first scouting activity since I was a youth was attending a Webelos summer camp with my oldest son. During the second day, all the adults were called together and told in no uncertain terms that if the YP Guidelines where not obeyed, the camp would be shut down. YP training wasn't required back then and I had only been in scouts a couple weeks, so I was clueless. The folks running the camp seemed competent, but not all that professional. Ironically a few years later, I would be training them to be Troop Leaders. We became good friends.

 

Anyways I left the meeting unsure of what it was really about. These camp leaders were clearly putting their foot down, but for what? I found through a parent from antoehr den that a female Webelos leader had been seen walking in on her Webelos as they were changing out of their swimsuits. They were having a good-O-time as boys do yelling and playing around inside the bathroom, so she walked in and told them to cut the horseplay.

 

I found it interesting that the female leader of the camp didn't recognize that this female Webelos leaders was just doing what I've seen my wife and countless other mothers do and that is control her children. I guess she violated some YP rules somewhere, but even I knew that this clearly was and over reaction to an innocent nurturing behavior.

 

That was how I was introduced to the world of adults in scouting. It made and impression and scared the fire out of me.

 

Barry

[Eagle92]

Eagledad,

I can tell you stories that will make your hair raise. YP and 2 deep leadership protects both the youth and the leaders. I knew one scout with a history of lying that accused a married female leader of making a pass at him. Guess what, the Silver Beaver recipient was thrown out of scouting because when this supposedly happened, everyone was asleep and she was making the rounds to make sure everyone was in their tents. No other leaders accompanied her on the rounds. And how do I know he's a liar, previous to the incident above, I had an incident with the same youth at an OA NOAC n. I was lucky in that I had 2 other adults with me, and 2 youth were with him when we caught him sneaking out the dorms. Try to say I gave him the OK to be out past curfew.

 

Another incident is hearsay, but I take it seriously because I had a nice little chat with the scout shop manager about me not doing the activity anymore. Apparently a long time scouter who took a PT job with the scout shop in another shop was asked to step down after a mother accused the gentleman of inappropriate contact in the scout shop when he put on the brand new CS's neckerchief on him. That's right someone complained of inappropriate contact by putting on a neckerchief. Don't know how that one went, but I and the other scout shop staff were told in no uncertain terms to NEVER put on a neckerchief again.

 

Another incident involved a brand new leader, a scouter who just turned 18 the week before summer camp, who I had to call the SE on because he hit a scout and the mom was ticked. The rest of the story was that the scout was such a problem, the other leaders called the mom to pick him up earlier in the day and she said no. Before they came to see the camp staff to deal with the problem, the new leader was correcting problem scout in front of the troop after he caused another problem. PS ran and started attacking the new leader and the new leader decked PS in self defense. I just followed procedures and let the SE handle the situation.

 

I can go on if you like.

 

Yes the rules are a royal pain in the glutus maximus at times, but there are reasons for them. You would think common sense would reign, but in today's litigious society, you got to CYA(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Stosh]

No one fights dirtier than a church, but Scouting comes in a close second. This is why it is important to carry a multi-million dollar umbrella clause on your homeownders. At any given time I take the field with Scouts, I have $5M of coverage and with Venturing I have $7M coverage. When I'm driving the boys around I have even more.

 

When they kick me out of scouts for something I've done wrong, then I guess I'll just have to find something else to do. However, it's going to be tough on my Venturing Crew in that I'm the IH of that organization and will be doing the same things I did before but without any say so by the BSA.

 

What people don't realize is that I can sue anyone on this forum for divorce. I can't win, but it's going to cost you a few bucks to have your say-so in court. If I ran around living my life in fear of being sued, I wouldn't be doing anything except escorting people up and down my sidewalk in front of my house in case it might be a little slipper at this time of the year.

 

So, do I trust Scouts/Scouters? Yep, up to the full extent of my liability insurance. Does that sound paranoid? Yep, but just because you think everyone is out to get you, doesn't mean that they really aren't.

 

Stosh

[Eamonn]

Wow!!

I have been an adult leader for over 30 years.

Done some really dumb things.

Never had a Scout or parent accuse me of anything and never felt the need to rush out and buy any kind of an umbrella policy.

Maybe I'm just relying on the luck of the Irish?

Eamonn.

[Bob White]

I'm with you Eamonn, it's easy to deliver an adventurous program without having to be be careless, and the vast majority of leaders do that just fine. But not all units are selective about the leader they choose, and it only takes one person with a lack of good sense to generate paperwork and regulations for the rest of us.

 

But once the rule exists, it exists for everyone, and as trustworthy leaders we need to abide by them.

 

The extremes we run into can be quite humorous in a sad way. We go from leaders who don't think scouts are allowed to use power tools, to leaders who give scouts power tools to use without making sure that they have the proper safety gear and turn them loose unsupervised.

 

(The biggest safety offenders I see in Scouting are adult leaders on OA workdays.)

 

A little knowledge of the Safety rules would solve both extremes, in the hands of a properly chosen adult leader.

 

[acco40]

Many direct contact Scouters seem to have difficulty is transitioning from a parental role to a Scouter role. At summer camp one year I had a mother (MC), who was camping in family camp in their RV come down to our camp about once a day and always inquired on about what her son was doing or had done that way. Her inquiries were always directed at him, not the youth or adult leaders. One day, she asked her son about a particular item and he said he couldn't find it. Well she proceeded to go into his tent and rummage around looking for the item. I discreetly went over to her, while and politely asked her to get out of her son's tent because of youth protection rules. She was dumbfounded but after I explained to her that her son's tent mate may not be thrilled to have someone else's mother in "his" tent I think it finally dawned on her why such rules exist. As a Scoutmaster, I like the fact that there are "rule" that I can quote without having to justify them "whys" all the time to the parents.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Family camp? RV? Really?

[Stosh]

Yeah, it's part of the new RV merit badge for the scouts that are having trouble putting up a tent and tying the knots. The Garmin on the dash board takes care of orienteering, the kitchen facilitates cooking, the holding tank promotes no trace, the on-board shower promotes a Scout is Clean, and getting in a 50-miler is a piece of cake.

 

Stosh

[Gunny2862]

An RV is LNT compliant?

 

shaking head morosely...

 

I've been doing this all wrong...

[Hal_Crawford]

Travel and camp on durable surfaces.... asphalt and concrete!

 

 

[evmori]

Where is this family camp you speak of acco? And just for the record, camping in an RV ain't camping.

[SR540Beaver]

I asked the question half in jest. Some camps opt to provide some RV hook-ups for adults and their families spending their summer staffing summer camp. That is cheaper than spending the money to provide cabins or temp housing.

 

If I were a camp or program director who will be spending much more time at the camp than the youth staff will be, I'd prefer not to spend a couple of months in a tent.

[Stosh]

I do believe there are camps in my area that have family camp areas, so I don't think it's too far in the future that there will be more, especially with the emphasis on family scouting that seems to be coming down the road. After all where are camps going to be putting all the stage-mothers, soccor-moms and dads that need to live vicariously through their sons?

 

Stosh