Conducting an Interfaith Service (BSA supplemental training)

[fgoodwin]

John, you know me, I guess I'm just dense so you'll have to lay it out for me.

 

You object to the online syllabus -- I get that.

 

You object to interfaith services -- I get that.

 

What I don't get is this: what EXACTLY does your troop do during your campouts to observe the 12th point? Or do you have issues with your own troop as well?

 

Not trying to be argumentative -- just seeking to understand.

 

And I note for the record that it is far easier to criticize than it is to offer a constructive alternative . . .

[Sylvar]

Thank you gentlemen for your explanation. I concur with your assessment that individual worship is the best option in that circumstance. However I think coming to together as a group and discussing the importance of the 12th point in our lives is acceptable.

 

I guess what I am getting at is this: How much of this is semantics?

Lets look at it : "Interfaith Worship Service"....Its an oxymoron isn't it? There isn't a Religion that I can think of that has worship criteria in its doctrine that would count an "Interfaith Worship Service" as cutting the mustard....and I think you agree with me on that (please correct me if I am wrong). It isnt really a Worship service for anyone is it? I think a gathering that isnt a worship, but instead an opportunity remind the scouts about the reasons reverence is one of the scout laws would be completely acceptable.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Thanks again for your patience and explanation

 

[John-in-KC]

Fred,

 

I think Sylvar just did it, see his post right above.

 

BTW, when I was active in a Troop, our demographic was homogenously Christian. Made the issue moot, as we could worship with broad, agreeable elements.

 

Sylvar,

 

Yes, I could live with "Faith and Reverence, An Interfaith Discussion." Unit or activity chaplain touches on what matters, but the format includes time for individual reflection and prayer.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[RangerT]

Having been a scoutmaster and Venturing advisor for many years I have noticed a few things on this topic, first the youth don't seem to have the hangups we adults do concerning their faith. I have let PLC's and crew officers design worship services that were all inclusive not so much by denomination but by the overall belief in a supreme Creator of the universe who created the beauty of the wilderness we were all enjoying at the time. We adults are so concerned with being politically correct we can't see the forest from the trees. The term Interfaith I think is the real problem is even groups of Christians can't seem to find common ground let alone including non Christian groups. None of these services can ever be a replacement for a particular denominational service, so lets stop trying to make it so. We call our service a "Giving Thanks" service, each youth shares something they are thankful for in their life, the prayers are individual and silent ones, there is also a time for private worship . When you are away from civilization and the youth can not get to their own places of worship this seems to work well as an alternative, and in over 20 years we have never have had one complaint. Final point these services are always voluntary, give your youth leaders a chance to show their leadership and creative skills you may be very pleased with the results, I know I have been.

[John-in-KC]

Ranger T said in part,

 

" the overall belief in a supreme Creator of the universe who created the beauty of the wilderness we were all enjoying at the time."

 

And that, Sir, is anathema. I invite you to say that to your Pastor, Rabbi, or Imam. I know what would happen to me if I said it to my Pastor. Matthew 18 (church discipline) would be invoked forthwith.

 

We are charged with guiding and shaping our young charges. The Liberty of the PLC is not License to take matters of faith into their own hands. That's why the adult is the Chaplain, and the youth the Aide.

 

We are to respect how each family worships. How do you do that when you let children mix and match?

 

To all on the Forum: I appreciate your indulgence here. This is perhaps the most strident spot in my whole psyche, in part because I'm willing to see the limits imposed by Scouting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[RangerT]

John

 

WE are not here to convert our scouts, as I said in my first post an interfaith service even among Christians is near impossible to achieve without ruffling feathers. I think you are blowing this way out of proportion and calling these services to bring scouts together to focus on the divine an anathema is an innaccurate use of the word, as well as bordering on the ridiculous. I appreciate your devotion to your denomination but remember Jesus opened his ministry to all Jew, pagan etc., and to be too exclusive in sharing your faith with others from different faiths puts you in line with all the religious persecutions throughout history, and really has no place in this day and age. It is as wrong as when the pope recently stated that all other Christian traditions, the ordinations of their pastors, and the sacraments they dispense are all invalid and do not lead to salvation, that statement sir is indeed an anathema.

[John-in-KC]

No, we are not here to convert.

 

We ARE here to preserve the faith extant in their families, and to preserve our own faith.

 

As I said, this will be a significant topic on my agenda when I go to the Lutheran conference at PTC this summer...

 

God be with you.

[Sylvar]

RangerT,

I have side with John here...Again we are talking about semantics. You called it a worship service and he is merely responding to that very narrow point. If you have an interfaith troop the "service" is not a "worship service"... It simply cannot be. Its got nothing to do with BSA, or PLC decisions. These are matters of faith that are out of their control. If a denomination/religion REQUIRES certain rituals/affirmations as part of WORSHIP then those must be met before you can call it such. Really, I am not trying to ruffle feathers here, but the point John is making is a specific one not a broad one. He isn't saying he can't sit in fellowship, discuss matters of faith or enjoy an outing with scouters of other faiths.....he is saying he can't WORSHIP with them.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Narraticong has suggested, "Perhaps rather than a Scout's Own, it might make sense for us as Scouters to encourage the boys to make packing their religious text as important as raingear."

 

I'm all in favor of private expressions of faith. However, I'd like to point out that not all faiths have a "religious text". Abrahamic followers (Judeo, Christian, Islamic) are called "people of the book" for a good reason - they adopted the idea of codifying their faith into sacred texts. Other faiths don't necessarily do this.

[John-in-KC]

Very true, Trev,

 

But that's why families in other religious traditions do have monks and priests ... to help them help their youth discover the matters which are important.

 

Even a family focusing on Scientology has some form of work to use in developing their children. Even Shinto, which has no sacred writings, has expository writings. Those can be used by a Scout to enhance his experience with the god-system in his family.

 

Am I writing clearly and making sense?

[Trevorum]

 

 

"Religious tolerance is not religious indifference. It is valuing the right of another person to hold beliefs that you know to be wrong."

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Trev,

 

Will you understand if instead of "know to be wrong", I say "I take on faith to be wrong?"

 

Faith does indeed encompass the matters of the unseen after all

[SSScout]

We really do need a "Chaplaincy" section.

 

Faith must be a personal thing, it starts with our parents, our upbringing. Whatever we are taught thru example or overt teaching is the basis of what we accept or rebel against or seek and learn about.It also is dependant on the choices and opportunities with which life presents us (Quakers speak of "way opening"). The Spirit does throw things in our way for us to walk around or pick up and examine.

I had a friend at work who was Jehovah's Witness. She and I would have some searching discussions early in the morning as the work day started. She was very eager for me to come and visit her place of worship but absolutely would not come to mine. She passed me many tracts about her faith but, again, would not accept any about mine. When I offered her some 'history', well, that was all right, but not anything about the belief. I could tell her about my faith and its basis, but her religion would not allow her to accept anything written about it. Bible? We could refer to her Bible, but not to my old KJV. Weren't they from the same translations? She had to depend only on what her faith leaders required of her. I felt rather sad for her. At the same time, she was a wonderful person and hard not to like and respect. If her faith helped to make her what she was, then I really had no reason to feel sad for her. But still I had a hard time believing the value of such limitations on a believers actions. How to test a faith if not to question it and compare it to others?

 

The choice of a "Scout's Own" or "Silent Reflection Time" or "Faith Discussion" or "(insert faith here) Worship Service" is dependant on the good judgement of the Scout leaders and their Scouts. Duty to God is the requirement, the fulfillment is as varied as the Scouts in our Units.

 

usw YiS&C

 

 

[Narraticong]

Thank you Trevorum for picking that nit...splinters and planks.

 

Perhaps rather than suggest Scouts bring a religious text, I should have suggested they come prepared to worship in whatever way they find suitable. If worship requires jumping up and down, or dancing, or singing, so be it.

 

Sylvar seems to understand my position. I am all for learning about other religions and their practices. That is what respect and tolerance are about. But it also means there is a reciprocal need for you to understand that I can not worship with those of differing beliefs without being grossly untrue to my own faith.

 

It's similar to my middle school age children needing to learn the Theory of Evolution in school. They learn it, study it, and take tests on it. Do they believe it? Not on your life. And it pleases me that my 13 year old daughter has the strength of Faith to successfully challenge her science teacher on the subject.

 

I hope I don't open another whole can of worms...

 

 

[Trevorum]

Narraticong, absolutely. And I do value the right of you and your family to believe or not in the Theories of Evolution, Gravity, and all the rest of the stuff they teach in public schools.