Institutionalizing Adult-Run Elements

[Beavah]

Hunt had an interestin' comment about how units may (often?) institutionalize adult-run elements. Adult-appointed PL's might be an example. So here's some institutionalized adult components I've seen, that I bet lots of units use.

 

If yeh see one you like, grab it and explain why yeh think it's OK, or under what circumstances it helps get to the Aims.

 

If yeh see one you hate, grab it and tell us why yeh think there are better ways.

 

If yeh don't see one you're lookin' for, feel free to make up your own!

 

Please share your own perspective on one or two first, before we start arguin' with each other

 

--------

 

Adults select or limit the pool of candidates for troop or patrol positions

(including things like rotating New Scout Patrol Leader).

Adults require uniforming for various events.

Adults offer MB or T-2-1 classes for advancement.

Adults determine the gear patrols can purchase or take on campouts.

Adults set expectations for or limitations on outings (1 per month, none in summer, must do summer camp yearly, etc.).

Adults require weekly collection of dues.

Adults set dues amounts.

Adults determine participation rules/fund distribution for fundraisers.

Adults determine fundraisers. Adults work fundraisers.

Adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement.

Adults sit on Boards of Review.

Adults plan parts (or all) of outings.

Adults plan parts (or all) of meetings.

Adults determine safety plans/respond to first aid needs/ etc.

 

[John-in-KC]

Adults sit on Boards of Review:

 

Am I not correct in saying this is mandated by Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures? (BSA # 33088D)?

 

Further is this mandate not reinforced in both the Scoutmasters Handbook (BSA # 33009C)

and the Troop Committee Guidebook (BSA #34505B)?

 

Now, we can debate all day long about the propriety of youth sitting BORs. Since the SCOUT rank does not require a BOR, it's an opportunity for boys to see the other side of things. There is also value in young men learning by being on the other side of the table, and certainly a 16-17 year old JASM, TG, or Eagle talking to an 11-12 year old seeking T-2-1 under supervision is not the end of the world.

 

Adults on the BOR is one of the elements of the Adult Association Method, which in turn should reach into both the Character Development and Citizenship Training Aims. That said, I can equally argue that for a young man sitting a BOR with the Committee, he is experiencing both the method and the two aims as well as the candidate. This is even more so when the BOR is properly constituted, and the young man sitting is a 4th or 5th person to be there.

[Lisabob]

We do more of these than I might really like to see. But there are only so many things one can challenge at a given time and my plate is full for now.

 

Let me offer one additional one:

 

Adults run the SPL election, so that the person who gets the most votes is SPL and the runner up is ASPL.

 

Justification offered for this (not mine) is two-fold:

1) Being ASPL is also an extremely demanding job, and anyone who is unwilling or unqualified to be SPL probably shouldn't be ASPL either.

2) At one point apparently there were a lot of boys willing to be ASPL but few or none willing to run for SPL - this put an end to that particular problem.

 

Disadvantages that I see for doing this:

1) The SPL could end up with an ASPL with whom he does not work well.

2) The SPL is deprived of making his own decisions about support staff - not just in terms of who he gets along with, but also in terms of making wise choices and thinking about balancing skill, style, etc.. One can learn a lot from having to choose a second in command and then living with that choice.

3) If there are only two candidates and the boys as a group really don't want one of the two in a position of authority, they're out of luck since the runner up becomes ASPL even if the results are a landslide in favor of the other guy.

 

[GernBlansten]

All but #1.

[emb021]

From your list:

 

"Adults select or limit the pool of candidates for troop or patrol positions

(including things like rotating New Scout Patrol Leader)."

 

Agree that this is wrong. Except maybe in the case of the New Scout patrol. I think the idea is that the NSPL should change about every month, to give each member a chance to do so (kinda like PL in Wood Badge patrols). Rotating may just make things move along smoother.

 

"Adults require uniforming for various events. "

 

I don't really see a problem with the SM determining the uniform (full or activity, etc), especially in a troop that is poor on proper uniforming. If you have a troop that has a good uniforming culture, then the SPL can do this.

 

"Adults offer MB or T-2-1 classes for advancement.

Adults determine the gear patrols can purchase or take on campouts.

Adults set expectations for or limitations on outings (1 per month, none in summer, must do summer camp yearly, etc.).

Adults require weekly collection of dues.

 

No argument on these items.

 

"Adults set dues amounts."

 

Adults usually have a better idea of what funds are needed for the troop and hopefully set reasonable (not too high) dues amounts, so I don't have too much of an issue with this.

 

"Adults determine participation rules/fund distribution for fundraisers.

Adults determine fundraisers. Adults work fundraisers."

 

Again, no issue. I do expect adults to help out at fundraisers.

 

"Adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement. "

 

Unless there is a policy forbidding this, what the issue UNLESS its 'only adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement', which is different and which is incorrect.

 

"Adults sit on Boards of Review. "

 

AFAIK, those are the only one who can be on Boards of Review. Unless something has changed, the day of boy-run BoR is gone.

 

"Adults plan parts (or all) of outings.

Adults plan parts (or all) of meetings.

Adults determine safety plans/respond to first aid needs/"

 

Only a caveat there that with a new/weak troop, the adults may need to be more involved in this, but should be working toward having the youth do this.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, just to be clear, I did include a few where da BSA itself has institutionalized adult-run elements, eh? Like adults sitting BOR's instead of kids, or adults setting conditions or requirements to be eligible for election as SPL or PL.

 

We have to recognize that these are adult-run encroachments same as any that are dreamed up by individual troops. No particular reason why well trained and experienced boys couldn't sit BOR's and as peers have an even bigger impact on their mates. And it's the job of the adults to see that they're trained, right? Of course it's always easier to take it over. And it can be necessary if the kids aren't ready.

 

The one I hate the most is the adult-run, school-like MB and T-2-1 classes. Not only do we take leadership and teachin' T21 away from the PL's, we turn all the fun into the most borin' version of school class we can find. Poor use of Advancement, poor use of Adults, poor use of Youth leaders, poor Personal Growth. Gad, is there a Method or Aim it doesn't undermine?? Sometimes it seems like every troop I visit slides into this.

 

The one I have the least problem with is adults settin' expectations for or limitations on outings. A few gentle parameters to help the boys frame the problem is a good thing, and keeps 'em from just boppin' from activity to activity without an underlyin' purpose. But sure, I'd hand this off, too, if kids were ready to run it.

 

I think the "sweet spot" for each troop meets the needs of those kids and adults where they're at, but we should all be tryin' to phase out every one of these institutionalized adult-run elements. Use 'em sometimes when we need to, but don't hold on to 'em. We can't phase 'em out all at once, and I doubt any troop would ever get all da way, but it should be our Holy Grail.

 

Beavah

 

[CNYScouter]

I would hope that Adults have a strong part to determine safety plans/respond to first aid needs/ etc./.

 

I would like to see all units working towards Scouts do most of the above instead of deciding its easier for the adults to do it or that the Scouts are busy with other activities so the adults do it for them.

The biggest thing that turned me away from Boys Scouts and into starting the Ship was that these units did not want to work towards becoming "boy-lead" and wanted to continue to have the adult doing everything.

 

I can add a few things I really didnt like from troops I visited while searching for a new Troop to join a couple of years ago:

 

Adults washing Dishes for the Scouts

An SM planning the menu for a camping trip, collecting the money and buying the food.

Adults arranging MB classes for the Scouts.

Registered leaders not wearing any uniform to meetings

Registered leaders that are Eagle Scouts who attend meeting on a regular basis that didnt even own a uniform shirt.

An SM who planed the yearly calendar with no input from the youth (or any other adults).

 

Adults require uniforming for various events.

I do not like the idea of requiring youth to do stuff.

I think you need to find ways to make them want to wear the uniform.

 

Requiring Scouts to do things is the fast and easy approach but I think that to be really successful you need to create a culture in the unit which takes a great deal longer to develop.

 

Sea Scouts wear Dress White uniforms.

I have one and I have been encouraging the Ship to get them.

The Ship just attended a regatta.

Before going they were very reluctant to get Dress White uniforms

They were the only Ship there without them, they are now looking into getting the Dress Whites, not because I am making them but because they now what to get them.

 

I do want to add there are exceptions to every one of these. An example is that we have a county park that has winter cabins to rent to any youth group. From Nov. to March these cabins are full and book 2 years in advance. You need a credit card to reserve these. When you try to book these you often need to decide if you want the same weekend with a different cabin or switch weekends to get the cabin you want, if you dont make a decision right when you call the cabins are booked.

 

I think there are exceptions if you have a young troop with little experience. They are going to need much more Adult Association than a troop with older scouts.

Right now the Ship is still way more adult lead than I would like.

This has been the most difficult thing I have been working on even with older kids.

I think that the youth in every program thet have been involved with everything is done for them and getting them to take control is they just have no experinace with.

 

Adults sit on Boards of Review in the Venturing/Sea Scout program youth member do still sit on reviews for the awards/ranks.

 

Adults offer MB or T-2-1 classes for advancement.

Almost every troop I visited had long term Scouters. In most of these Troops these people hung around teaching the younger Scouts which I think should be done by the older scouts. Most of these people have stayed on after the sons have left the unit and I would have really liked to see these people become WEBELOS leaders, where they should be teaching the youth and getting them to cross over into a Boy Scout Troop.

 

 

[emb021]

"I did include a few where da BSA itself has institutionalized adult-run elements, eh? Like adults sitting BOR's instead of kids, or adults setting conditions or requirements to be eligible for election as SPL or PL."

 

AFAIK, adults have pretty much been the only ones on BOR. The era of kids being on BOR was brief, and only for T-2-1. I'm not saying they shouldn't be on the board, just that AFAIK, its not BSA policy.

 

As to eligibility requirements, I don't recall what the literature says, but I've always felt this to be something determined by the PLC, not the adults. Many organizations do set some eligibility requirements for officers, usually stuff like a minimum amount of time as member, being in good standing, so having something similiar without being too excess is ok.

 

"The one I hate the most is the adult-run, school-like MB and T-2-1 classes."

 

You'll get no arguement from me about this.

 

To add to what CNYScout said about uniforming. I've found that in units with a strong 'uniforming culture' (everyone understands activity & full uniform- or 'class a' and 'class b' if you want to use those terms), and understands that there are times when one is more appropriate then another, the SPL should be able to set when to do this. I have found that when scouts who come from a unit with poor uniforming cultures and get involved in something that is strong on this (Jamboree, OA, etc), that this can instill this attitude. To a degree it did with me when I was a scout.

 

[Eagledad]

Hi all

 

Great discussion. I would be surprised if any troop could brag that they dont do some item on the list.

 

At training I defined boy run as a program where the adults give the scouts the freedom to initiate actions in their troop. I dont have a problem with any item on the list if the adults are trying to hand those items on the list to the scouts as they learn the program. Through my own personal humility, I am guilty of many items on the list. Lets face it, scouting is hard and very few adults are perfect scouters right at the beginning. If the choice is either the adults plan the campout or there will be no campout, well the choice is obvious. The hard part is the adults realizing they are the problem, not the scouts. They have to learn how to teach the scouts the skills required to take responsibility of the items on the list.

 

Lisabob says it best: But there are only so many things one can challenge at a given time and my plate is full for now. . Truth is all troops are boy run to some degree. But some are just a lot more boy run than others and to some degree, our plates are full. A Good boy run troop is one where the adults handover ownership and responsibility of the program to the scouts as both the adults and the scouts gain maturity and experience.

 

Its a tough list and I cringe when I think back of my experience with it.

 

I love this scouting Stuff.

 

Barry

 

[acco40]

My comments on how our troop handles the following and why:

Adults select or limit the pool of candidates for troop or patrol positions (including things like rotating New Scout Patrol Leader). Yes, we do this. We limit candidates to boys registered in the troop. We also follow the BSA guidelines for positions that need Scoutmaster approval (Den Chief, Instructor, Troop Guide, etc.). As for NSP PLs, I let the boys pick the PL who holds the position for 30 days.

 

Adults require uniforming for various events.

How does one "require" uniforms? Our expectation is that while participating in a Scouting function, one wears the appropriate Scouting uniform (field or activity).

 

Adults offer MB or T-2-1 classes for advancement.

At the request of the youth, adults offer advancement opportunities. We rarely do this at troop meetings but primarily at patrol meetings and during outings. Now, the youth do the same (i.e. we don't have adults teach exclusively).

 

Adults determine the gear patrols can purchase or take on campouts. Well, we do haul the trailer so I guess you can say we determine the gear patrols take on outings! Our primary function is to make sure, through mentoring and working with the troop and patrol quartermasters that the boys have the appropriate gear. As adults we also restrict gear in accordance with G2SS and certain camps (i.e. fireworks, certain electronics, etc.).

 

Adults set expectations for or limitations on outings (1 per month, none in summer, must do summer camp yearly, etc.). As Scoutmaster, I work with the PLC during the annual planning conference. I don't mandate but the expectation is we camp at least once a month (December excluded).

 

Adults require weekly collection of dues. Adults set dues amounts. Adults determine participation rules/fund distribution for fundraisers. Adults determine fundraisers. Adults work fundraisers. Adults have determined dues amounts ($25 per quarter) and have set the expectation that each boy contribute $40 per year to the troop. They may do this either via the annual popcorn fundraiser or simply opening their wallets. The boys have initiated fundraising on their own (distributing fliers, bottle drives, etc.) and they determine where the money goes (Scout accounts, to the troop, earmarked for a certain item such as tents, etc.). The adults "work" fundraiser primarily by acting as chauffers.

 

Adults sign off on T-2-1 advancement. Yes, we do this.

 

Adults sit on Boards of Review. Yes, we do this. Don't forget, one of the purposes of a BOR is to evalute the Scoutmaster corps via the responses of the Scouts under review. I do not believe this should be a youth function.

 

Adults plan parts (or all) of outings. We plan parts. The Scoutmasters usually make the reservations, downpayments, etc. The youth participate in the annual planning and present to the committee and delegate to the adults what they want done.

 

Adults plan parts (or all) of meetings. Adults plan meeting parts when assigned by the youth. For example, the SPL may ask an adult to teach a class, demonstrate a skill or even to plan a complete meeting.

 

Adults determine safety plans/respond to first aid needs/ etc. Not sure what this means. When emergencies occur we all use our best judgment. Recently (last week) at summer camp we had a Scout injure his leg outside or the camp site. The SPL was nearby and carried the Scout to camp (soft tissue injury, no bleeding). An adult (me) made the medical determination for treatment (and I also turned it into a teaching experience).

 

[EagleInKY]

I'm pretty much in concurrence with Acco. I also believe that "Boy Led" is not as much a state of "being" as it is an ongoing objective. We go through periods of time where adults have to step in and lead certain aspects of the plan. It may be because we're asked to or it may be because we need to. But the goal should always be to get away from adult-run elements (except those such as BOR that are mandated) and move on to letting the boys run it.

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure I would put Adults in a Board of Review as an Adult Run Element.

 

With adult association as a method of scouting, I have always thought Boards of Review and the Eagle Board of Review to be stars of the Adult Association method. The Board of Review is when the Committee gets to do some quality control on the program (not sure why we do quality control, it's like it would be bad to have quality rampant).

 

The committee gets to talk with troop members and have an opportunity to find out how the scout perceives things.

[Kudu]

Great topic Beavah, and an excellent list of elements!

 

To "Adults sit on Boards of Review," I would add:

Adults conduct Scoutmaster Conferences.

Adults judge a Scout's Spirit.

Adults sign "Blue Cards."

Adults tag along on all outings, including the 2nd Class "Five Mile Hike."

 

In the parts of the world where Scouting is played as the game invented by Baden-Powell, the BSA's institutionalization of these five adult-run elements would be viewed as obvious examples of Hunt's observation that:

 

"You may think you have a strong boy-led program, but if you take key decisions away from the boys, you don't really, especially if they know that they are really supposed to be responsible for those decisions. You are just reminding them who is really boss, and that will carry through into everything you do. Of course, you will find that things may run more smoothly this way, if that is your goal."

 

As discussed in recent threads, there are no Boards of Review or Scoutmaster Conferences in these "boy-run" versions of Scouting. The testing of outdoor skills is done for most ranks through a series of adult-free real-world wilderness treks (called "Journeys") of increasing difficulty. The BSA's Five Mile Hike is the only required Journey that remains in the BSA, a vestige of B-P's Second Class standard of eight miles unaccompanied by adults or older Scouts.

 

The teaching of Tenderfoot through First Class skills is primarily the responsibility of the Patrol Leader, although he may delegate. The quality of his instruction is seen as a reflection of the Troop's honor, so oversight is vested in the "Court of Honor" (COH: the session of Patrol Leaders in Conference).

 

Blue Cards: Likewise, when a Scout feels he has mastered a Proficiency Badge subject, he customarily must apply to the COH to meet with an examiner. Permission is usually conditional on the Court's determination that the "applicant" has done his share to "move the Troop along," either by helping other Scouts in their "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft" (what we call "Advancement"), or through various other positions of responsibility, such as Quartermaster, Scribe, etc. Moving the Troop forward is an ongoing real responsibility, however, there are no sweet "six month terms of office" deals here.

 

The Court of Honor is where much "adult association" takes place. If you read the transcript below of a "typical" Court of Honor, you may notice more dialogue between the Patrol Leaders and the adult Scouters than we might expect in a BSA PLC. This includes the appointment of Patrol Leaders. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/index.htm

 

Note that in this version of Scouting the Patrol Leaders decide on the broad themes of outings and weekly meetings, but often delegate the creative details to the adults, as in acco40's Troop.

 

Kudu

 

 

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Venividi]

Kudu,

Thanks for the reference. It reminds me of the scene in the movie "Boy's Town" where the boys conduct a Court of Honor to review the conduct of Whitey after he stepped out of line. There has been quite a change.

 

 

[Hunt]

How about: "Adults use Boards of Review to retest skills that have already been signed off by boy leaders."

 

It seems to me that this is a good--and unfortunately common--example of an institutionalized adult-run element.

 

Similarly, instead of "Adults sign blue cards," how about, "Adults control what merit badges may be pursued, and select merit badge counselors."