What should BSA change?

[Hunt 11]

"Small, floundering units should be routinely shutdown by their Council."

 

I think these units should be encouraged and assisted to merge with other units--the emphasis should be changed from the number of units to the strength of units. This change alone would enhance the Scouting experience for large numbers of boys.

[Chippewa29 13]

Lots of good points already, but I really have to agree with Hunt. Consolidating units would make a lot of sense. There are four packs within ten minutes of my troop that have less than 15 Cubs (including Webelos). They all have trouble getting leaders and the amount of administrative work could be shared and cut in half if some of these units would merge. These packs could probably put on a much higher quality program if they merged and shared resources.

 

Whoever mentioned capping the number of Scouts in a troop also had a great idea. If the troop is so large the youth can't run the troop, then split up the troop into leadable pieces.

[Kudu 186]

RangerT writes:

 

"I think that the real issue here is that most of us want to preserve the scouting heritage of our own youth or that of our father, and the reality is that most teens today are not interested in that heritage."

 

The same thing is true for all forms of heritage. Didn't a recent poll reveal that a significant number of American college students believe that America and Germany fought on the same side in World War II?

 

"In this fast pace technologically advancing world our kids have been absorbed into a sort of virtual reality. The principals and morals of scouting are still relevant today but the outdoorsy, hiking and gung ho camping trips and skills are not relevant to pre teens and teens, in other words most just aren't interested anymore. So what do we do? We have to meet the kids where they are at now, and appeal to them by doing the things that they are interested in."

 

Virtual reality, eh? Yeah, I'm sure that if the BSA sold off all of its Scout camps and substituted dark indoor video arcades (that preserve "Scouting's timeless values" by discriminating against girls, little homos, and godless six-year-olds), BSA membership would increase dramatically! But this idea of figuring out in what things kids are already interested and then calling that "Scouting" is passive.

 

Kids did not know that they wanted Scouting before B-P invented Scouting. The whole point of advertising in a free market is to create a desire for something.

 

Ranger, if you arrange a recruiting assembly in a school in your own neighborhood, I can walk in and in a half hour motivate more than half of an audience of cynical sixth-graders to sign up as interested in this "gung-ho" version of Scouting that you dismiss so easily. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

"Shoving a program at them developed 50 or more years ago will not work and the numbers will continue to drop as recent history has proven out."

 

The enrolment numbers in a state-imposed monopoly don't prove anything. You say that it is because we still haven't dumbed down the outdoor program enough, others say it is because Americans associate Scouting with discrimination or corruption and greed.

 

My own limited experience indicates that it is the parents who do not allow enthusiastic kids to join! Look for the real answers in Richard Louv's book, Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature Deficit Disorder.

 

Listen to a short NPR interview with Louv about video games and "nature deficit disorder" at:

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4665933

 

"Besides Baden Powell was ahead of his time, if he were alive today I am sure scouting would be very different."

 

I'm sure that Karl Rove says the same thing about George Washington.

 

"All the Baden Powell original program flag waving is pointless with our dropping numbers nationwide."

 

The point, in case you missed it, is that people who hate freedom reject Baden-Powell's program because they want the state to impose one form of corporate Scouting on everyone.

 

"So we can keep beating a dead horse until our numbers dwindle down to nothing: or we can get with the kid culture of today and build a program catering to their wants not our own desires."

 

While you chase the fickle "kid culture of today" and call it "Scouting," a few of us will work for the right to establish small volunteer niche markets based on traditional outdoor skills.

 

"If we stand rigid and refuse to bend with the times then scouting could disappear in the next ten years."

 

Scouting is dead, long live Scouting!

 

Kudu

 

[RangerT 10]

Kudu

You validate what I said in your last statement "There will always be a few of us volunteers who will promote an independent outdoor skills program."

Yes then the scouting alternative program you promote will be a small cult with a small number of kids. Again, the statistics are proving more and more each year that the exsisting program is not attracting anywhere near the numbers it once did. In another thread several scoutmasters said that less than 10% of the boys in their troops were actively involved, and I have heard the same from the leaders in my council. So you can start another youth organization with outdoor skills as the focus but I guarantee you that it will be a small group and probably won't survive very long, remember the Woodcraft Rangers.

 

The real issue is what can we do to attract more youth and instill in them the values of scouting. The sad truth is we are losing the fight and all the rah rah for the Boy Scouts of old will not change that fact Kudu. I don't like it either but I would rather modify the program than continue to lose more and more youth. It is not a time to form splinter groups but a time to band together to save the program we all volunteer our blood sweat and tears for. Kudu, I applaud your passion and understand your frustrations but we either try to salvage Scouting or go off and form new groups and let the BSA continue to go down hill. I love the outdoor skills and teach them to my Venturers but their interests are clearly elsewhere.

YIS(This message has been edited by RangerT)

[epalmer84 10]

Boot Hans Zeiger's articles from BSALegal.org. In my opinion, he is trying to set himself up as the Rush Limbaugh of the BSA.

 

Ed

[Kudu 186]

 

 

"Yes then the scouting alternative program you promote will be a small cult with a small number of kids."

 

"Cult"? I would use the term "niche market."

 

The BSA as a religious organization certainly has its own cult-like qualities, for instance the first sentence of Personal Fitness Merit Badge which is designed to normalize religious medical neglect, a cruel form of child abuse that causes long and painful deaths while, at the same time, a church "practitioner" relentlessly urges the dying child to acknowledge that he himself has caused the disease through his stubborn refusal to repent his sins to the satisfaction of Jesus Christ. See:

 

http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/

 

"Again, the statistics are proving more and more each year that the existing program is not attracting anywhere near the numbers it once did. In another thread several scoutmasters said that less than 10% of the boys in their troops were actively involved, and I have heard the same from the leaders in my council."

 

Again, the statistics do not prove the cause of the decline.

 

My experience is that more than half of sixth-grade boys want to join what you call a "gung-ho" Scouting Troop, but the percentage of the parents who allow the enthusiasts to join has declined from more than 50% ten years ago, to 18% this year. So, at least in my area, the cause of the decline is not what attracts potential Scouts, but rather how Scouting is perceived by their parents (whatever that might be).

 

"The real issue is what can we do to attract more youth and instill in them the values of scouting. The sad truth is we are losing the fight and all the rah rah for the Boy Scouts of old will not change that fact Kudu."

 

Which "values of Scouting" are those?

 

If you mean discrimination against children, then you are correct. The BSA, a religious organization, is the youth group flagship of "privatised" state-imposed discrimination. The religious right would be wise to skip the mosquitoes and pretend that any popular activity is "Scouting," as for instance they are now doing with soccer "Cub Scout" teams in the Latin community.

 

If you are talking about Scout Law, however, then the medium is the message! The true "values of Scouting" are taught by putting a Patrol of Scouts in the wilderness where Trustworthy, Helpful, Cheerful, etc. are not abstract values but practical necessities.

 

"I don't like it either but I would rather modify the program than continue to lose more and more youth. It is not a time to form splinter groups but a time to band together to save the program we all volunteer our blood sweat and tears for."

 

Save the program? What program?

 

A program in which any couch potato can earn Camping Merit Badge (and Eagle Scout) without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back does not deserve the adjective "Scouting."

 

To dumb it down even further, as you suggest, is reason enough to form small "splinter groups" that offer real Scouting to the 50% of sixth-graders who are excited by wilderness adventure.

 

Kudu

 

 

[Jeffrey H 25]

"The BSA as a religious organization certainly has its own cult-like qualities, for instance the first sentence of Personal Fitness Merit Badge which is designed to normalize religious medical neglect, a cruel form of child abuse that causes long and painful deaths while, at the same time, a church "practitioner" relentlessly urges the dying child to acknowledge that he himself has caused the disease through his stubborn refusal to repent his sins to the satisfaction of Jesus Christ."

Kudu,

What???  Whatever you are talking about is not the BSA I'm familiar with or even remotely familiar with.  I would appreciate it if you would not take extreme "fringe" examples and characterize those as representative of the BSA and all of it's councils.

--Jeff

 

 

 

 

[Gonzo1 10]

I like many of the comments above.

 

How about changing the requirements for the basic scoutcraft skills from Tenderfoot (for example) such as:

4a. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

4b. Demonstrate you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch.

 

To something that shows PROFICIENCY in the skill like:

4a. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope 10 times on 10 different occassions.

 

4b. Demonstrate you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch 10 times on 10 different occasions.

 

Then, add to Star and Life

4a. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

4b. Demonstrate you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch. - - - - - Along with other scoutcraft skills like lashings, some first aid, fire building, etc.

 

 

And by the way, add Backpacking to the Required List.

 

Gonzo

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

Kudu was not a clear as he might have been regarding his first statement. I read it again and my take on it was that BSA felt it necessary first to respect the rights of those 'fringe' religious persons and their practices - and then to disclaim any responsibility if something tragic occurs as a result.

This may be legally correct, perhaps, but not exactly a courageous approach IMHO.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Gonzo, the way I understand it, the requirement is for the scout to demonstrate he knows how to tie the knot. It is then up to the Troops program to place the scout in a situation to use that skill. In the scenario you describe I can see some troops setting up round robins on camp outs checking out that the scout can tie the knot. Wouldnt the better idea be to have the scouts on the campout use knots to make a monkey bridge, trebuchet, bridge or some other structure? If you teach me French for a year, and then I dont use for 5, how well do you think I will do in Paris in the middle of that 5th year?

 

Once a skill is learned, it has to be used or it is lost, sorta Use it or lose it. If the Troop isnt sure of its members scout skills, then it should look into how it incorporates scout skills on outings, not focus on testing the scouts.

 

Pack, are you asking the BSA to define what an acceptable belief system is?

[local1400 10]

OGE, you only need to find Le Mcdonalds and hold up fingers for numbers. "Coke" is universal. G1 and I agree on the skill awards as we did in a similar thread a few months back but I was thinking the other day that I needed to earn the First Aid MB for FC. Now you need to "learn" bits and pieces for each rank. We should compare requirements over the years and pick the very best for each rank. And as far as continually using skills on each outing over and over, I don't wholeheartedly disagree with that, but repetition could lead to boredom with todays lads. Why go on that campout and build another inverted tripod tower when you can play x-box for three days? I would also like to see the time requirement for each rank extended (and that may cause some backlash) just a little. Enjoy Scouting a little while. Racing to make Eagle is just that, a personal goal that goes against the Patrol System a little. Also, restore the Leadership Corps and do away with excessive "phantom" POR. I have only ever seen 2 real Buglers in my time yet have seen many Bugler POR patches. And my last rant for this post is this: Get rid of NSP and integrate new Scouts into existing Patrols. Again, at the recent camporee, NSP is left to fend for themselves when properly using the Patrol method without an older boy or two to mentor and teach. 11 year old PL-give me a break. I've got underdraws with more experience than some of these kids.

[Gonzo1 10]

OGE, LOCAL,

 

I didn't intend to cause boredom on campouts, but rather to eliminate the "check in the box" route to advancement. Making a "useful camp gadget" seems to be a tripod by default.

 

I intended to have proficiency, not a sign-off.

 

While discussing our recent backpacking trip with another ASM ast week, I sugested (as the boys agreed - practice makes perfect) that our scouts hike in and out of most campouts and get away from pure car camping. He said I would be "adding to the requirement". I said, No, motorized transportation ends here, now use the heel to toe express and start walking. The other ASM said, "no patrol boxes? no coolers?", I said cars can bring them in, scouts should carry their own gear. No need to look like 'dorks' at a camp-o-ree and if a road is dangerous, drive in. BTW, I'd walk too, with a pack.

 

I think I'd drop "Family Life" from the list all together and put some of those requirements in T,2,1.

 

Bring back Skill Awards, return Cooking, swimming and lifesaving.

Maybe Wilderness survival. Though nearly every Eagle earns it, besides, it's fun.

 

Gonzo

 

Edited part:

Lose the Elvis collars, lost the epaulets and loops. I feel like Captain Crunch!

In other words, get a better shirt.

(This message has been edited by Gonzo1)

[Lisabob 13]

Local, let me add a couple of real buglers to your list. My son's troop has a tradition of having a good scout bugler. But that's probably only because we have had a couple of accomplished professional trumpet players serve as ASMs over the years and they've been able to share their passion and skill with the scouts. For troops with no one to fill that adult role, I think it would be much tougher to fill the youth role. Now, is it leadership to stand up in front of the group and play? That's debatable I suppose, but as a musician myself (though not a pro) I do know it takes guts.

[RangerT 10]

Kudu

 

First of all you have misrepresented what I said, I never wanted to "dumb down" any program. I would rather offer alternatives like the Venturing program does. There is the Ranger option for those with an outdoors interest, the Quest award for sports focused individuals, etc, etc. So my idea is to diversify not diminish the program,which will make it stronger and attract more youth, in my opinion.

 

I am not here to debate you just to offer some alternative views on this subject. You don't have to agree with my views and I don't have to agree with yours. I have over 25 years working with the BSA and have led a successful pack, troop and currently a crew. I have seen attitudes and interests in teens change over time. Your dislike for the BSA is very obvious in your posts, and I think that is so sad. So Kudu for the sake of this thread lets end this debate now. Your last post was way out there, IMHO.