BSA Authority revisited

[CNYScouter 46]

 

If the BSA's role, or business model, or legal relationship does not have the authority for quality control over the use of its program and only exists to assist community agencies and serve them as the community agencies run a part of their youth outreach then how can the BSA tell a CO who can and can not be a member?

 

If the BSA has no authority over a CO in the use of its Scouting program, how can it tell a CO that Gays or atheists (or girls) can not be a member of their Scouting Program?

 

What makes membership requirements different than any other part of the BSA program?

 

There is also a big difference between does not have the authority and does not use its authority for quality control.

 

I am really trying to understand this whole Authority thing.

 

[Eamonn 61]

A lot of the answers can be found in Standard Local Council Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws.

Article IX. Local Units states:

The executive board shall review or shall authorize some committee or person to review all applications for new charters or renewal of charters by community or charted organizations within the corporations territory and shall forward the recommendation with respect to each such application to the national office of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

District Membership Chairs/ Committees can do the leg work when it comes to starting new units but the agreement with the CO and the BSA needs to be signed by a representative of the BSA.

When I read the new unit application. I see:

"... is to promote through cooperation with other agencies.."

This is not the same as "only exists to assist community agencies and serve them as the community agencies run a part of their youth outreach"

At the risk of rambling or ranting.

Membership in the BSA is a privilege not a right.

Membership can be revoked.

Councils can have their charter revoked, Units can have their chartered revoked as can individuals.

What can be done and what is done?

I'm not sure if this is a good example or not.

I like to think I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and do my best to fulfill my obligations. I have friends who are catholic but rarely go to mass and don't do much to support the church. There have been cases where the PP we had at one time refused to marry people like this in our church. He can do this because he has the authority to do so. He doesn't have the authority to excommunicate, this would need to come from Rome.

I'm not sure how far things would have to go before a membership would would be revoked?

I have sat on the Area Committee and the committee has voted on issuing Councils provisional charters.

When I was District Commissioner we had a Venture Crew, which we didn't feel was the "Right Fit". They opted not to recharter, but I think if they hadn't we would have made the recommendation that sign off on their charter renewal.

Eamonn.

 

[CNYScouter 46]

What is a Council provisional charter?

What things would have to occur to issue a provisional charter to a council?

 

I am going to assume that this is like being put on probation

 

So, can units/COs be issued a provisional charter?

What things would have to occur to issue a provisional charter to a unit/CO?

 

[KC9DDI 11]

One idea I'd like to bring up is that of group identity. It makes sense to require a unit that wishes to call itself a "Boy Scouts Of America Troop" (or pack or crew or team, etc.) to incorporate some key characteristics. For instance, the "Boy Scouts of America" organization requires male-only membership in units (outside Venturing), certain youth protection and safety guidelines, etc. In return, the organization provides services such as camp facilities, training opportunities, insurance, etc. There is nothing stopping a church/other community organization from developing a program similar to the BSA, except incorporating females/atheists/homosexuals - the Boy Scouts of America would simply not be involved with that organization, and they could not claim membership within the BSA. Whether or not the BSA is "right" in some of its policies is a separate discussion. Ideally, each troop calling itself a "Boy Scout Troop" should be similar to other Boy Scout Troops in these key areas - that is, a "Boy Scout" in Troop 100 should have the same meaning as a "Boy Scout" in Troop 500. The two troops may have different programs, traditions, etc, but share the essential characteristics set by the national organization. With this type of policy, my Eagle scout badge should be equivalent to anyone else's Eagle badge - we should have completed the same requirements, though perhaps through different methods. Of course, this obviously is not always the case, but, to me, this seems to be a good explanation of the authority thing.

[epalmer84 10]

There is a form that the chartering organization and the council will fill out when a unit is created or the charter is moved. I don't have it at hand, but it spells out the relationship between the CO and the BSA. The CO agrees to abide by BSA rules and regulations and can apply Scouting within that framework to their program. For example, a Catholic church could restrict troop membership to Catholics but could not open membership to girls.

 

The BSA has revoked individual membership- Dave Rice comes to mind.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1998/09/13/METRO16130.dtl

 

Some packs in Illinois had their charter revoked because the CO insisted the packs adhere to a non-discrimination policy:

http://www.uua.org/news/scouts/openingdoor.html

 

The Cradle of Liberty Council in Philadelphia attempted to adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy and National threatened to revoke the council charter.

 

So- yes the BSA has authority in the form of the charter process.

 

Quality control in the program is provided by training and by the commissioner service.

 

Ed

[Beavah 205]

If the BSA's role, or business model, or legal relationship does not have the authority for quality control over the use of its program and only exists to assist community agencies and serve them as the community agencies run a part of their youth outreach then how can the BSA tell a CO who can and can not be a member?

 

Yah, big question, eh? One that's pretty controversial at the moment. And yah, sure, we've also seen a few council execs try to use the adult membership revocation to get rid of annoyin' oversight and whistleblowers, or just people they didn't like. That's what we call "corruption" eh?

 

But sure, for a "big thing" that affects the BSA's public image and business, they can stop doing business with a CO. Same as any business that offers support and materials, eh? If yeh sell medical supplies, and you discover that one of your clients is usin' half of what you sell them to promote illegal drug activities, you don't want your name associated with that. So you refuse to sell to them anymore.

 

No different with the BSA. No different with the CO, either - they can stop doin' business with the BSA just as easily, and for the same reasons. They no longer want to be associated.

 

Yah, sure da BSA, or like in Eamonn's example, the Catholic Church, can deny services to anybody who is viewed as a sinner, eh? That just makes you a very small organization . But unlike the Catholic Church, the BSA is bound by its charter and bylaws to cooperate with community agencies, so they can't go it alone. And unlike the Catholic Church, its members have a controlling vote in the policies of the organization. In the BSA's case, the policies that the members set are that the BSA is to honor and respect the goals and aims of the CO, and offer Scouting resources in service of those goals. The current CO's also say they only want to be associated with the people who follow their view of the 3-G's. Bit of tension there, for sure.

 

When it comes to program standardization, though, that's a non-starter, eh? BSA has no interest in limiting itself like that. Look at the recent program development efforts, like Venturing and Scouting and Soccer. They're all goin' the way of being "non standard and very flexible". Tryin' to come up with support materials to help CO's with everything from sports to hobbies to outdoors to ministry to social service.

 

Doin' what they do to support CO's in their youth programs. Comin' up with new materials to better support organizations that were highly tweakin' the old materials. That's BSA Scouting.

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

" In the BSA's case, the policies that the members set are that the BSA is to honor and respect the goals and aims of the CO, and offer Scouting resources in service of those goals"

This kinda sounds like it is from some official BSA material?

If so where can I find it?

Eamonn.

[scoutldr 739]

It's on the charter agreement form:

 

http://www.ctrivers.org/pdfs/annual%20charter%20agreement.pdf

[Eamonn 61]

"What is a Council provisional charter?

What things would have to occur to issue a provisional charter to a council"

As a rule provisional charters are given to Councils that the Area Committee deems to be failing. Most times the Area Committee looks at Membership and finances.

I'm not sure what or how other Area Committees work? I've only served on the one!!

We meet about every 3 months. There are 13 Councils is the area we serve.

An Area Vice-President has normally met with the key 3 of each Council to see how things are going. He reports back to the Committee. We grade each Council from A -D.

a "D" would result in a Council being given a Provisional Charter.

We have given these to Councils who are deep in debt or who are losing a lot of members.

This really is a wake up call to the Council Key 3 and the Executive Board that things have to improve.

The Council I'm in was issued a provisional charter after we fired a Scout Executive. The reason given was that our then Council Key 3 were not meeting. Which was true, the Council President and the Scout Executive couldn't stand the sight of each other.

Each year before the presentation of a Council Charter, an Area VP is to meet with members of the Council Executive Board for a Charter Review.

Of course most Area VP's can only go by the reports they are given.

Eamonn.

[Eamonn 61]

Thanks scoutldr.

Maybe I'm just being more than a little dense?

But as I read that document I read:

".... It charters community or religious organizations or groups to use scouting as part of their service to their own members and the community at large."

The Chartered organization agrees to "Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America.

"Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.

So while we do respect the aims of the organization and do offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting their objectives. We do so within the policies and guidelines of the Boy Scouts of America.

If an organization was unwilling to work within the policies and guidelines the Boy Scouts of America does not have to issue a charter, renew a charter and could revoke a charter.

The program belongs to the Boy Scouts of America.

Eamonn.

 

[evmori 11]

Based on this

 

Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America

 

seems to keep the authority with the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah 205]

I continue to be mystified by the fascination with this topic, and by the "well, then that means anybody can do whatever they want!" arguments. Yeh can't even find a dictatorship where the dictator can do whatever he wants, eh? That's not true here, either. It's a partnership. Partners should be respectful and friendly. Yeh just need to understand the role of each half of the partnership.

 

From the Charter documents, on the role of the BSA:

 

"The Boy Scouts of America is an educational resource program. It charters community or religious organizations or groups to use Scouting as part of their service to their own members, as well as the community at large. The BSA local council provides support service necessary to help the chartered organization succeed... The [bSA] council agrees to respect the aims and objectives of the organization, and offer resources ... to help in meeting those objectives."

 

And, as evmori indicates, the CO gets to conduct its program according to its own policies and procedures as well as those of the BSA. Now, of course, if Scouting were to be truly standardized, then units would be governed only by the policies of the BSA. But instead the CO gets its policies first, since the BSA acknowledge that da CO owns and operates the unit. Legally, the CO bears the liability for the unit, and so legally, it must have control. The BSA routinely files to have its corporate self dismissed as defendant from scout unit lawsuits (and routinely succeeds in those petitions) because it does not claim authority for units or unit programs. Yah, the BSA acts as an insurer, but that's a common "outside contractor" service, eh?

 

Charter language is by nature and design vague and poofy. To understand its intent, one must look at how it is viewed and practiced by both parties. And as we all recognize, CO's are given enormous latitude in how they use BSA program materials to serve their own youth ministry goals, and the BSA even assists with that process. The BSA spends no time or money on unit supervision or quality control, that's not a part of their business. It does not require purchase of the Insignia Guide so units can be uniform compliant; it does not even require purchase of a uniform. It sells those things as a program support service to the units that want 'em. And they're pretty popular, eh?

 

Sure, sometimes one or the other (usually both) parties decide not to renew the contract for services. Same as any partnership. That's a decision to limit your services or market for the sake of "identity" or resources. Not the BSA's usual interest, eh, least outside of 3-G issues? We like "numbers" better.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Trevorum 24]

"poofy" ... ??

 

I gotta admit, I don't understand legal jargon ...

[Beavah 205]

:) :) :)

 

Yah, "poofy" is one of those technical Latin terms, eh? Requires three years of law school and the secret handshake before we explain it to yeh!

 

Of course, it's probably just that I'm non compos mentis.