About this Methods Thing...

[Bob White]

Acco, I have no idea what you think I am struggling with. I have no internal conflicts with the Scouting Methods, what they are, or how they work. While OGE could have phrased his question any number of ways, they way he chose was fine. It was clear and asked a simple question.

 

Required in this case means... essential, necessary, to have a compelling need for. In order for you to lead a real scouting program the use of the scouting methods is required.

 

Ed does not feel the methods are required. But how you can lead a scouting program without them? OGE asked who else felt this way, or who disagreed. It's an important question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Eagledad writes:

 

> I would be excited to have a discussion on methods, could somebody

> start the discussion over and ask the question differently?

 

Actually, I do have a "real world" question that might help put the methods of Scouting in a different light. I didn't spin it off to a new topic because I assume, from the nature of the discussion so far, that there will not be any takers :-/

 

I am involved in designing a small, highly-specialized international youth program that is similar to what you call "Scouting," but which is based on a game designed by Baden-Powell, not the BSA (or WOSM, for that matter). The general idea is to play the game as it was played by Baden-Powell, updating it ONLY for reasons of health, safety, environmental concerns, and advances in camping equipment. In other words, a 1940's program, but not historical reenactment.

 

Baden-Powell's advancement requirements are fairly straight forward, but I have hit a snag in working out Baden-Powell's "Aims & Methods" for adult training.

 

Under the topic "Methods of Scouting NOT Interdependent?" John-in-KC grouped a number of B-P's quotes under the BSA's current "Eight Methods" model. This is a useful way to look at Baden-Powell's writings, but the so-called "Eight Methods" are not universal to Scouting, except as a DESCRIPTIVE way of viewing non-BSA Scouting programs like Baden-Powell's.

 

B-P had only a single "Aim of Scouting," Citizenship. Although he talked about the "methods" of Scouting, he never used the term consistently. The best Baden-Powell "Methods of Scouting" model that I could find was the organizing structure of his book "Aids to Scoutmastership:"

 

1) Character Development: to practice the qualities of honor, self-reliance, observation, deduction, happiness, and enjoyment of life;

 

2) Health and Physical Development: to practice the qualities of self-discipline and energy through healthful habits and physical fitness;

 

3) Self-Improvement: to introduce hobbies, handicrafts, and skills that encourage self-discipline, thrift, resourcefulness, and ambition;

 

4) Service for Others: to develop the qualities of reverence and unselfishness in everyday life.

 

The question I have is regarding the first chapter of the book, "How to Train the Boy." I did not list it as one of B-P's "Methods" because it appears to be an overview to Scouting as a supplement to school: a game that concentrates on Character Development, Health & Physical Development, Self Improvement, and Service for Others.

 

However, some of you may look at the Methods of Scouting in a different way. "Aids to Scoutmastership" is available on the Internet, but it is a lot to wade through. One summary of the five chapters of "Aids to Scoutmastership" can be found in Baden-Powell's early pre-Wood Badge training model, especially the "Questions to be Answered by Candidates" at the end:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/study_patrol.htm

 

At any rate, with apologies to Eagledad, I have asked the question differently :-)

 

[Bob White]

Kudu

 

you wrote.."The question I have is regarding the first chapter of the book,", but then you never actually ask a question.

 

What exactly is your question?

 

 

PS as aa historical note the chapters you listed were not the methods of B-P's scoputing program they were what B-P called the 4 great qualities of a scout.

 

The book itself was a guide on how to train boys. The BSA Methods are an explanation of how the elements of the program achieve the aims and mission of the program. The two are not comparable.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Nowhere have I posted we don't use the methods in my Troop. That was an assumed by certain posters.

 

I posted the above. We do use the methods in my Troop. My point is/was they aren't required!

 

Barry,

I don't mean to come off as sandpaper. I'm just not a "flowery" word type. Sorry if it offends you, but that's the way I am!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

Bob,

In the thread on LDS scouts, you implied that largely eliminating the Outdoor Method for 11 year old Scouts was an "acceptable modification" of the program. Can you explain how you square this view with your statements in the current thread?

[Eagledad]

>>Barry,

I don't mean to come off as sandpaper. I'm just not a "flowery" word type. Sorry if it offends you, but that's the way I am!

[Kudu]

> What exactly is your question?

 

Would you list "How to Train the Boy" as a "method" (for a total of five methods), or is it an overview or forward to the "four methods" that are used to train the boy?

 

 

[Kudu]

> as a historical note the chapters you listed were not the methods of

> B-P's scouting program they were what B-P called the 4 great qualities

> of a scout.

 

Where can I find a reference to B-P calling them the "Four great qualities of a Scout"? It seems to me that the "great qualities of a Scout" are expressed better in Baden-Powell's ten Scout Laws.

 

> The BSA Methods are an explanation of how the elements of the program

> achieve the aims and mission of the program. The two are not comparable.

 

Sure they are comparable. Methods are the means that adults use to attain their aims. In Baden-Powell's version of Scouting, the Aim is citizenship, and this is done though games that concentrate on Character Development, Health and Physical Development, Self-Improvement, and Service for Others.

 

The BSA Methods may be more catchy, memorable, and even useful, but they are only one way of looking at Scouting.

[dan]

The methods are not required.

It is required that I drive the speed limit, if I do not I may have to pay a fine.

It is required that I go to work, if I do not I may not have the job that I have know.

If a unit does not use the methods, life goes on and the council is just happy to have a unit on the books.

 

Of course this is using the definition for required from the dictionary.

[Bob White]

Kudu writes...The BSA Methods may be more catchy, memorable, and even useful, but they are only one way of looking at Scouting

 

They are the way to look at scouting in the BSA. Granted there are other programs with other structures. But if you are a leader in the BSA thses are the aims and methods that you need to know. Don't you agree?

 

Even the scouting programn in the United Kingdom is not the same program that B-P lead nearly 100 years ago.

 

If you are going to write your own program based on B-ps program you are bound to have a degree of success. look at all the other scouting programs around the world including the BSA that built programs based on B-Ps writing and they are all doing fine.

 

In B-Ps Aids to scoutmaster Ship he points out "Four Areas of Scout Training, (as I pointed out this is a book on training scouts not training scoutmasters). They are the 4 areas you identify in your post. Under each he lists qualities to be aimed for in each.

 

In Baden-Powell's words taken from the Aids To Scoutmastership.. "The aim of the Scout training is to improve the standard of our future citizenhood, especially in Character and Health;

 

Character Cirtizenship and Fitness. Seems to me the BSA has kept very true to its origins. But I wish you well in your 'new' program.

[Backpacker]

The point of this prolonged discussion is that Ed and Bob are both right, the methods of scouting are not requirements however if you do not incorporate them in your program you can't really have a true scouting program.

 

The trouble comes when the methods are interpreted differently from their original intent or purpose, unfortunately I have seen this happen in three different councils training programs, they all used the same syllabus but some of the interpretations by some of the instructors were really off base. I guess they never heard of Train the Trainer training.

 

I think that when two or more read the same book they may not see the same meaning or point of the author. Just like the Bible, you can read the same scripture and come up with a variety of conclusions, thats why we have so many

"Christian" traditions. The methods of scouting are no where near as complicated as the Bible yet there are so many different opinions as to their meaning and how to put them into action. Makes you wonder.

[Bob White]

This fascinates me Backpacker. How did this come down to Ed and Me? Other posters have expressed exactly the same view as I have. Why not Eamonn and Ed, or OGE and Ed, or FScouter and Ed. How did this distill down to Ed and Me?

 

 

[FScouter]

"... the methods of scouting are not requirements however if you do not incorporate them in your program you can't really have a true scouting program."

 

I'd say rather, that the trouble starts with the very idea that "methods are not required", as if the methods are some kind of option, or a helpful suggestion from BSA. What does it take for some to understand that Methods are not optional? Must BSA write a legal document that must be signed by the adult leader and notorized? "THE METHODS ARE REQUIRED - SIGN HERE".

 

The Methods are discussed at length in the New Leader Essentials training. Scenarios are presented and participants show how the Scout activities utiilize the methods. The specific trainings cover methods. Methods are in the adult leader books. How could anyone possibly think the Methods are not required???

 

Did any of you in the "not required" camp ever take New Leader Essentials training? How could you miss learning this most basic part of being a Scout leader?

 

[evmori]

FScouter,

There are lots of things taught at training sessions that aren't required by the BSA. The methods are ways of doing things but are not requirements.

 

Trevorum,

Excellent question! Too bad you haven't received an answer.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Trevorum wrotes

Bob,

In the thread on LDS scouts, you implied that largely eliminating the Outdoor Method for 11 year old Scouts was an "acceptable modification" of the program. Can you explain how you square this view with your statements in the current thread?

 

Ed wrote

Trevorum,

Excellent question! Too bad you haven't received an answer.

 

Both are wrong. The fact that I never implied anything of the sort makes it a bad question. Trevorum is the one who has implied that the LDS have largely eliminated the outdoor program, all I said was they don't camp on Sundays.

 

People who believe that you cannot fully use the outdoor method without camping on Sunday have no understanding of what the outdoor method is. It sounds as if you think the method is soley about camping.

 

Ed and/or Trevorum, How many nights of camping each year is a unit asked to do by the BSA program each year at a minimum? What do either of you think the Outdoor Method is?