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Reporting Adults Who Do Not Follow Lightning Precautions


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3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Regarding @yknot's "common sense". My mom grew up during the Depression in a house that wasn't grounded. She remembers watching the balls of lightning roll across the floor. So, general ignorance is probably a victim of successful building inspection over the past century. I just relayed to my scouts the story I got from an old-timer camp staff from when I was a kid about the camp where we stayed. They had gotten everyone out of a storm and moved indoors to the craft shed. The lightning strike found it's way down the walls, across the floor, up the table and through the stamp of the one scout who was making contact with it on the down-stroke. The poor lad instantly went into cardiac arrest and could not be revived. These aren't stories that I like to retell, but it's all I have to enable scouts to increase awareness of their surroundings.

Yes, the more hermetically sealed our lives become the less we seem to have basic common sense. Regarding your mother, when I was scout age I read a book on weather that focused on lightning phenomenon like the one your mother experienced. It made a big impression.

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I'm trying to figure  out what to do with these staffers.  Could we tell Will Smith they made fun of his wife?   As others have pointed out there comes a time in most people's lives, when they re

Playing devils advocate, if the nearby dining hall is taller and does not have a lightning rod to ground it, also if the construction materials of the dining hall are more conductive then the shorter

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Posted (edited)

OMG, you will not believe this...

So, during said storm, the adult staff told the 35 youth participants to stay in their lean-to shelters, which they did.

Guess where the adult and youth staff were???...in the dining hall!!!!  And there was plenty of room for all!!

Guide to Safe Scouting: Camping: Lightning Risk Reduction?  Well, I guess it is just a "guide"...  Hazardous Weather Training??  meh...  BSA Safety Incident Review: Lightning?  That's for others, not me 😈😈 😈😈😈

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
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2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

OMG, you will not believe this...

So, during said storm, the adult staff told the 35 youth participants to stay in their lean-to shelters, which they did.

Guess where the adult and youth staff were???...in the dining hall!!!!  And there was plenty of room for all!!

Guide to Safe Scouting: Camping: Lightning Risk Reduction?  Well, I guess it is just a "guide"...  Hazardous Weather Training??  meh...  BSA Safety Incident Review: Lightning?  That's for others, not me 😈😈 😈😈😈

I'm trying to figure  out what to do with these staffers.  Could we tell Will Smith they made fun of his wife? 

 As others have pointed out there comes a time in most people's lives, when they realize that just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't mean their always right.   I learned this important lesson about age 15.  Before that I probably would have stayed huddled in my lean-to.  Afterwards  I would have been right on the staffs heels into the dining hall.  The only way they would get me to go back out would be to drag me and then hold me there . If I'm going to die in a lighting strike so are they.  ( Guess I wouldn't have done very well in the Army.)

 

Edited by Oldscout448
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I have been drafting the Incident Report / Near Miss this morning.  Trying to avoid emotion, conjecture, opinion and conclusions....just trying to stick to facts known from interviewing my three Scouts who were on the course.

Here's one of the lean-to's at our our camp

396945955_LeanTo.png.0bd72430e425b45100a5ee67def653e5.png

 

Better than a tent, or no cover at all, but not when there is a dining hall within a short walk.  Staff also knew strong storms were coming well in advance, and should have wickered program to move indoors.

BSA safety notes are clear and unambiguous that these structures are not safe during thunderstorms.  Yet, staff, including professional staff (full-time position Camp Director) are telling people they are.  Unsat.

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28 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I have been drafting the Incident Report / Near Miss this morning.  Trying to avoid emotion, conjecture, opinion and conclusions....just trying to stick to facts known from interviewing my three Scouts who were on the course.

...

BSA safety notes are clear and unambiguous that these structures are not safe during thunderstorms.  Yet, staff, including professional staff (full-time position Camp Director) are telling people they are.  Unsat.

Yeah, I would expect a "no harm, no foul" informal response or perhaps a "more training" response even though both training and safety procedures were not followed.

WTH, add your valued opinion! What constructive resolution would you recommend? Will you send scouts to the next NYLT if these "adults" are again on staff (we did not).

In your lean-to photo, I saw no Safety signage regarding bad weather procedures. IMO, there Should be a weatherproof sign. Are those braces just 1x4?

My $0.01,

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6 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yeah, I would expect a "no harm, no foul" informal response or perhaps a "more training" response even though both training and safety procedures were not followed.

WTH, add your valued opinion! What constructive resolution would you recommend? Will you send scouts to the next NYLT if these "adults" are again on staff (we did not).

In your lean-to photo, I saw no Safety signage regarding bad weather procedures. IMO, there Should be a weatherproof sign. Are those braces just 1x4?

My $0.01,

Lol, thanks...

But, I know my opinions are not valued by our SE.

And, I really do not expect them to change a thing...  Of course, I do not recommend our parents have Scouts go to any council functions here.  OA functions are laughable, and summer camp is much the same.  Our neighboring council runs a much better NYLT program.   I usually vector them there...this incident just confirms that course... 

Yes, 1x4's.  and many of the lean-to's shake and shift (do you like those cement blocks?)  They have been improving them over the years...

Know of a tactful way to say I'm keeping a record of the incident and report, should a future injury be reported?

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
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What I have seen are just the Camp Safety Rules (including bad weather, wildfires procedures) printed in large type on a 5x7 or larger cards and enclosed in a weatherproof seal. These signs are posted on all structures - camp office to latrines. Not unlike the Safety Signs in classrooms regarding nearest fire exit and shelter-in-place.

I like the NOAA sign.

another reference

https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/articles/lightning-safety-outdoors

Edited by RememberSchiff
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9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

What I have seen are just the Camp Safety Rules (including bad weather, wildfires procedures) printed in large type on a 5x7 or larger cards and enclosed in a weatherproof seal. These signs are posted on all structures - camp office to latrines. Not unlike the Safety Signs in classrooms regarding nearest fire exit and shelter-in-place.

I like the NOAA sign.

another reference

https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/articles/lightning-safety-outdoors

But this sign might not really help...

What is a "Substantial Building"?  I know the answer, but a 12-13 year old will most likely not...  If this sign was posted on a lean-to, a Scout could easily interpret that to mean "Shelter Here"

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12 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

But this sign might not really help...

What is a "Substantial Building"?  I know the answer, but a 12-13 year old will most likely not...  If this sign was posted on a lean-to, a Scout could easily interpret that to mean "Shelter Here"

We also have a safety drill so scouts know where to gather (add storm shelter signs). You might look at camp signs in tornado areas.

So we have a camp guide's section Safety Rules and Procedures, posted signs repeating those rules and procedures, and a drill at the start of camp.

Another $0.01

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2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I have been drafting the Incident Report / Near Miss this morning.  Trying to avoid emotion, conjecture, opinion and conclusions....just trying to stick to facts known from interviewing my three Scouts who were on the course.

Here's one of the lean-to's at our our camp

396945955_LeanTo.png.0bd72430e425b45100a5ee67def653e5.png

 

Better than a tent, or no cover at all, but not when there is a dining hall within a short walk.  Staff also knew strong storms were coming well in advance, and should have wickered program to move indoors.

BSA safety notes are clear and unambiguous that these structures are not safe during thunderstorms.  Yet, staff, including professional staff (full-time position Camp Director) are telling people they are.  Unsat.

When were these built? Who is your incident report going to? If it were me I would cc NCAP and the municipality where the camp is located. I would wonder whether those structures are up to current code. Also, municipal policies for youth events within township borders might supercede BSA camp policies. Regulations for municipal youth sports facilities, for example, can be pretty stringent and enforced. You don't see many teams stuck in dugouts during weather events. It's not ideal to draw attention from a government source but in cases where the judgement of BSA leadership can't be trusted -- and we all know nothing much will happen if your report is solely internal -- then the priority becomes ensuring the safety of future scouts. 

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15 minutes ago, yknot said:

When were these built? Who is your incident report going to? If it were me I would cc NCAP and the municipality where the camp is located. I would wonder whether those structures are up to current code. Also, municipal policies for youth events within township borders might supercede BSA camp policies. Regulations for municipal youth sports facilities, for example, can be pretty stringent and enforced. You don't see many teams stuck in dugouts during weather events. It's not ideal to draw attention from a government source but in cases where the judgement of BSA leadership can't be trusted -- and we all know nothing much will happen if your report is solely internal -- then the priority becomes ensuring the safety of future scouts. 

All good ideas... I'll try a "feedback is a gift" approach first and see if it gains any traction.

And no idea on construction dates...50's and 60's original structures is my best guess, with multiple patchy repairs over the years

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
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A near miss report that one that I have not hear of in scouting circles. (needs it badly)All other risk prone outdoor groups i work with at least require it. To be of value it needs to be open to the group to analyze and learn from and hopefully take preventive corrective actions. Not a likely event in scouting. I go agree that the dinner hall is normally one of  the better places to go for lighting. But if your dinner hall is like the ones i have seen it all glass so any wind born debris would make it a killing zone.

Be careful  with the feedback been told that i am taking up to much of the councils time with safety issues and suggestions

 

 

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