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I can give you a recent example, in the first Group Dynamics thread you closed it as soon as Bob went crying to you and Hops about me hijacking the thread. What a load of bull that was, you did not even give others a chance to respond because you back Bob every time.


Bob, you love to hunt and bait people in here, and don't tell us different because it is your standard MO and everyone knows it. You are what I like to call a chatroom predator and bully. I see the new reformed Bob did not last long, I never thought it would. Barry and Ed have been more than tolerant of your beligerance and your superior attitude. I feel you have shown your true colors and nature in here to the point that people will start responding less to you. As for me I enjoy verbally jousting with you and as your armor is chipped away the true Bob will be exposed. Part of me wonders whether you and Eamonn are not the same person, Eamonn being the good cop to your bad cop persona.

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Backpacker, I closed that thread at the request of a forum member, I often close threads at the request of forum members and have been known to edit posters posts after the time has expired for them to do it.


I did close that thread at Bob's request and Bob started it over, and it has remained untouched, as has this thread. If you want to hunt witches, I guess this is the season, but leave Hops and I out of it

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99% of Backpacker's posts have been nothing but personal attacks and nothing but belligerent. That makes you a what, an internet troll. Stirring up hostility and adding squat, nada, zero, nothing to anything on either side of an issue. Jason was insane, but son, you're rotten.

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you are mixing terms and programs together. This could be one of the problems your patrol had.


Venture Patrol and Venturing are two totally separate, totally different programs.


There is no such thing as Venture patrol training for Assistant Scoutmasters. There is Venturing Crew training for Advisors and Associate Advisors of a Venturing Crew. But there are no Assistant Scoutmasters, or even Scoutmasters, or even patrols, in Venturing.


So If your ASMs went to Venturing training to operate a Venture Patrol it is no wonder things did not work, they are two separate programs.


See we are back again to the problem of the program not being used correctly and that is why it failed.




Your problem is one of experience and practice. You have the right idea but need to understand implementation better. It will be tough to do a 60 min. training session on the internet but i will give highlights. Then if you want to to cintinue to work the program and want to discuss this more I will PM my Phone# to you and you can call and we will talk.


Do not expect junior leaders to understand the leadership roles and responsibilities immediatly, especially if they are new to the Patrol method.


The adult leaders #1 responsibility to to train and develop them to be able to lead. The responsibility is as much yours as theirs if the job is not getting done.


Formulating all the details for decision making is new to boys this age. Help them by making their choices simplier at first. Rather than say "Where do you want to go next month and when do you want to go", say we have three choices for activities next month here they are, or you can suggest a fourth one" Then say here are the two times the adult leadership is available, which date do you want".


After they bain some experience you can leave more blanks open for them to fill in.


You want better attendance at PLCs make them fun. Meet at someones house with a ping pong table or video games, or a pool, or air hockey, Let them know that if they want to show up early they can play, and then once the business is done if there is time we can play some more. Work ahead of time over the phone with the SPL and have a tight agenda so that the PLC learns how to focus on work so they can get it done and enjoy the rewards of leadership.


When you see a PL or SPL or other junior leader do even the slightest leadership action corectly..tel them right away. Be specific "I saw how you helped Tom with that problem, good leaders take good care of those they lead, nice job." You have to take good leadership actions and hold them up for the scout to see so they know extacly what it is you mean.


When a leader makes a mistake talk to them (don't holler) I saw you pick on Tom for not getting the dishes clean, how did thank that worked for you? If a Scout is friendly courteous and kind, how could that have been done differently?" Then you coach him through to the right response. "I agree that would have been a better way, thats good thinking, Thats the kind if thinking that makes for good leadership."


You cannot blame Scouts for not being good leaders. Everyone already knows that. Other organizations don't let boys make decisions for that very reason. Scouting is supposed to be different. You need to realize they aren't good at it because no one before you has taken the time to teach them. YOU are the difference when you follow the program.


If you want to continue this we can go to the Scout Chat room sometime on MSN or You can call me. Your Choice.





Backpacker and Ed et al


In the past OGE and I have been accused of being the same person. we of course are not. Nor are Eamonn and I brothers separated by gypsies. We (along with a number of other contributors to this forum) just share an understanding and belief in the program and had enough faith and respect in the 94 year experience of those volunteers and professionals who designed it, to actually follow it.


The difference between us is patience. When it comes to adults who chase boys from scouting, I have none. When a person says they know scouting but don't use it, I have none. When someone says they are something that they are not, I have none.


OGE was the right choice as the moderator. When I was a Scout our troop had thing where in order to come sit at the campfire you had to bring a piece of firewood with you. Unless you brought your share to help the fire you had to leave. when you came back with wood you could stay.


This wasn't a lesson in firebuilding, it was a lesson in citizenship. If you want to be recognized as a valuable person to the community you have to make a contribution to the community.


Had I been the moderator, there are a few posters would be sent out to look for wood.


Bob White









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>>Of course you know it doesnt, its a completely different program.>So If your ASMs went to Venturing training to operate a Venture Patrol it is no wonder things did not work, they are two separate programs.

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"So you agree with me, when adults of one program have go to other programs looking for any kind of help, then something is wrong with that program. As those leaders found out, it didnt help them and they were still frustrated."


What I agree with is that the two programs have nothing to do with each other. Do these same leader go to a Hardware store to get a haircut?


Venture Patrols are discussed in Scoutmaster Asst Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training and in the Scoutmaster Handbook.


It is a logical progression from experienced patrols. Do not confuse boy run with adult abandonment. Adults play a leadershp role in all levels of troop scouting, hence the title scout leader. With Venure patrol there are new activities, more advanced skills and new recognitions to learn about. The patrol leader remains a member of the PLC but often Leadership changes more frequently so that the Venture Scout can lead the great adventure they have a personal affinity for.


New anything is a challenge for boys, but with goot training prior to moving to the Venture Patrol and good leadership skills on the part of the ASM then after a short adjustment period there is no reason for things not going well.


But it would be helpfull if the leaders take the training for the program they are actually in.



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Hi bob


Back at ya. Don't confuse logical progression with adult run. As you pointed out many times, you must have an ASM for success with Venture Patrols.


As I was taught in school "sure you can build an airplane with a hammer. What's important is how will it fly?" Maybe your satisfied with less then we are down here and that's OK.



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Thanks for the response. That's the kind of discussion and help I was hoping to find on this thread. I would welcome any further help you have time for. Over the phone would work for me.


For those of you that have decades of experience being an adult leader in Scouting I would appreciate hearing about any failures you've had using any aspect of the program and how you overcame them, or maybe you didn't. Even if you're a newbie like myself I would like to hear your stories. It's probably the "troubleshooter" in me, which is my profession, but I enjoy hearing how others have dealt with failures and how they were overcome. It's a lot less painful learning from others' mistakes.


I have a tremendous amount of respect for those that share their experience here but I don't enjoy the personal attacks.



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Thanks River2k (Ken)

I hope that you or Bob do start a thread on PLC's.

I feel certain that there are a lot of good ideas out there. We just need to take a look at them. I think we will see that there are a lot of different people running this meeting lots of different ways.

I of course think that the way I used to hold our PLC'S is good. But I will bet that there are some people who are thinking outside the box that will put me to shame.

I agree that these pot shots are not adding anything to the forum. I think that they will die down and we will return to exploring ideas. We will I hope never shy away from asking a question or disagreeing with the other guy.But even if the other guy is someone that you view as being a real twit,we will try to remember that even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The backspace button /key is a powerful tool.A few kind words before we say that we don't agree will help soften the blow. Words can be very powerful. I hope we can use the power to do good. Tearing things down and putting people down is easy, it can provide a moments fun but as Scouts and as Scouts out in full view of the world I hope we don't want to do that.


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Oh, I got one!


The troop I'm affiliated with used to try that whole boy-run thing. Boy, big mistake. Those kids kept doing things wrong. They were never organized enough, they were always making mistakes. Complete disaster. And then we adults always had to waste time by guiding them. Ugh.


So we got rid of boy leadership. Adults ran everything and the meetings went almost completely smooth. But kids were still kind of loud so we just got rid of the boys. Now we have a perfect troop. And we owe it all to not following the program.

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I know a troop in Ireland that tried the nobet approach (No Boy Entry Troop) They found that they had the following problems:

No Scouts to yell at meant that they ended up yelling at each other.

Without problem parents calling in the middle of Murder She Wrote, they had to watch the whole show.

They had no one to bring the empties back to the bar.

The Treasurer ran out of money half-way through the first meeting.

They had to buy their own cigarettes.

There was no one to do First aid when the Scoutmaster fell off his stool.

Everyone got very confused when the CC kept yelling "Pint of order" They found out later she was trying to say "Pint of Porter."

NOBET Scouting cost a lot more.Paying all the fines was really expensive.

The reason the Nobet troop failed was because they felt bad not having Eamonn at the meetings, singing Danny Boy.


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Yes, I have a real-life example of "when it did not work." Actually, depending on your point of view, it may have worked . . . in the end.


This is not an example of the BSA program failing, merely one of the BSA's methods of selecting leadership.


Eamonn -- reading your last post, I'm thinking that perhaps you should have gone to bed half an hour earlier :)


Okay -- on to the example.


When I first got married and my wife and I joined a church, it's troop was failing. They were down to a fistful of boys and had no committee chairman or scoutmaster. They had a charter rep and the parents of the three boys.


None of the parents were willing to be scoutmaster, but all were willing to help.


We got a copy of selecting troop leaders -- or whatever that BSA publication is called and we took the steps.


A selection committee was formed.

A list of desired qualities was developed.

From there, we prioritized 10 names of people within the small congregation who we felt would be a good Scoutmaster. We didn't say no for anoyne . . .

Anyone that is, except me. For some reason, or reasons, the group wanted me to do it. I turned them down . . . I had enough on my plate as Committee Chairman.


At any rate, the Charter Rep and I then made appointments with #1 candidate and his wife, and went to see them. No soap. He had neither the time nor the inclination to be Scoutmaster.


Same with @2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, and (I bet you can guess this one) #10.


Did the advice and selecting leadership plan from the BSA fail for us. Some would say it did. I can tell you that after 10 NO answers, it sure feels like the program failed.


Now . . . before anyone types down my throat, let me share with you the actual ending of this story and you can tell me if it failed or not.


I said that I came out as the first choice for Scoutmaster.


Well, guess who, after 10 asks, ended up taking the job and holding it for three years until the troop had 21 boys, four assistant Scoutmasters, a new Scoutmaster, and new equipment.




I guess I could have saved myself and the CR some serious time if I'd just said yes in the first place and gotten to work.


My point of this story is that the BSA program does work. Is it always perfectly executed? No. Does that mean we're bad volunteers? Not always. Should we give up and do our own thing even after 10 tries? No. Keep trying to make it work.


No one ever achieves perfection -- but some get pretty darn good. Only those that do not seek it are doomed to fail.



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What is the purpose of this whole thread? For us to come up with ideas where we feel the BSA program has failed for us, and for Bob White to criticize us and to extol the virtues of the BSA program? And of course in his mind that program can never ever possibly be wrong. To me this is a blood pressure raising waste of time.

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