new scoutmaster Question

[DuctTape 1231]

It sounds like you already know what you will do. My only question, which does not really affect your decision is... How does a troop "own a project"?

[Dmward 2]

David CO - I agree that it may not be a small transgression (but we still don't know the specifics surrounding this incident).  The question I have is, what would the scout need to do to deserve forgiveness, to earn back your trust, and to qualify himself for rank advancement?  And how can he do those things once you've expelled him from the troop?

well the boy will be 18 in 8 months, I have 36 other scouts and familys that could possibly be affected by this as well. we all know how much fun dealing with parents can be... my concerns are how many parents will pull there boys out of the troop. is it fair to the ones who did nothing wrong(or at least never got caught) to be removed? eagle is off the table at this point as far as in concerned. forgiving him is easy, swearing in front of my troop and community that the boy is one of finest examples of a scout and honoring him with privilege of eagle scout. that I cant do....

[Dmward 2]

It sounds like you already know what you will do. My only question, which does not really affect your decision is... How does a troop "own a project"?

there is a eagle project contract for every eagle project. my mind is made up about him not deserving eagle at this time, struggling with allowing him to still be part of our troop. many factors and ramifications apply here  

[Dmward 2]

Here is another factor to think about, the boy will be an adult in 8 months, what will he learn from a pardon and allowing him to be an eagle.  besides all the other factors most of us work for companies that drug test. if any one of us make a bad choice and ingest drugs and fail a drug test once no less twice, do we get a pardon along with a raise? this is also an opportunity to teach someone on the cuff of adulthood a life lesion, the lesion is NOT that its ok to disregard laws and policy's you will still make it to the top......

[jwest09 51]

So, a little longer reply here.  Background: In my personal and professional life, I've had more than a few encounters with drug use.  In my Scouting life, I've had more than a few encounters with drug use.

 

Its easy to let your mind spiral out of control, and worry about a bunch of hypothetical long-term ancillary problems and solutions.

 

I'd start by thinking only about this one kid.  Is he invested in your troop and your program?  Does he attend and participate in meetings and outings?  Does he hold leadership positions, and execute them well?  Ignore the drug issue for a second - just what's your gut feel about this kid?  Is he a good kid with his heart in the right place who needs a swift kick in the pants?  Is he apathetic to scouting and your program, and just doing the bare minimum to get by?  Does he actively cause problems and lead others down a dangerous path?  

 

Step two: talk to the kid as a mentor.  Not as a friend, not as a fact finder, not as a judge. Just talk to the kid, and address the elephant in the room.  Hear him out, ask clarifying questions.  Explain that you can't understand how a Scout would want to earn the Eagle award, but repeatedly make such poor decisions.  Leave it open ended, and see what he says.

 

In my experience, at this point, the problem solves itself in a majority of cases.  If he can't answer, or reveals that he's not really motivated to earn Eagle, then that answers your question.  Those of us with our hearts and souls in the program rightly treat Eagle as a holy grail - but we can forget that not all scouts feel the same way.  If its just not important to him, then it seems like an easy decision for you to make.  As you may have surmised, I can be a bit of a bleeding heart, and am maybe too generous with second chances.  But I'm at least a little practical, and recognize that scouting isn't always what is needed is some of these cases.  I don't treat marijuana possession as an unforgivable sin, but if you want my help, we at least need some common ground to work off of.  If that common ground is the value of Scouting and the importance of the Eagle rank, I can work with that.  But if we don't share those values, I'm not going to force them on you.  And I won't feel the least bit bad when we mutually agree that continuation in Scouting, or in rank advancement, is off the table for you.

 

(The other side of the coin here is, if the scout doesn't value Scouting or Eagle, then don't expect withholding those things to be effective in teaching a lesson.  Losing something you don't value isn't much of an inconvenience.  And may in fact be desirable for him, if his parents are all that are driving his reluctant participation in Scouting anyway.)

 

Now if the scout offers some compelling explanation at this point, it makes your job harder.  It may give you the opportunity to make a very real, very big difference in someone's life.  But its not going to be easy for you.

 

Be careful around pseudo-legal hand waving and such.  FWIW, in my experience, the story still doesn't quite make a ton of sense...  Round here anyway, a 17 year old caught twice with a small amount of pot wouldn't be making waves like this.  Jail time wouldn't be likely.  (Note that the "juvenile system" refers to the court system and processes surrounding it, it doesn't necessarily mean juvenile detention, aka jail).  So either the rumor spill has bent the truth a bit, or there's more going on here than just a bit of pot.

 

And on the topic of the rumor mill, as well as your duty to the other families in the troop.  Rumors are dangerous.  We teach our scouts to act with integrity, think critically, separate fact from conjecture, and be empathetic.  Participating in, or making decisions based on a rumor mill isn't compatible with that good behavior.  Now, I understand that its a real thing, with real implications, and you need to deal with it.

 

What do we train our scouts to do?  Do the right thing, even if the right thing is not the easy thing, or the popular thing.  The young man in question obviously failed at this.  He failed himself, his troop, and in a way, he failed you personally.  Be careful not to give in to peer pressure yourself, and let rumors and threats guide you down the wrong path.

 

Its a crappy situation, and I don't envy you.  But I've been there before, and I'll be there again.  Long story short, I'd encourage you to approach this first from the perspective of how you can effectively mentor this scout, and then balance that with the needs/opinions of the rest of the troop - not the other way around.  I'll leave it at that, and wish you the best of luck.

[JosephMD 38]

its so much more than requirements at this point. or recreational use of pot. he made a "mistake and was caught in school with weed, he was then mentored and disciplined by the scoutmaster. did he learn from that??? No, he repeated the exact same negative behavior.  the boy is 18 in 8 months. I also have 36 other scouts and parents to worry about. an eagle scout is a elite group of the finest in scouting. Can I honestly stand infront of my troop and community and say this boy is one of the finest examples of boy scouts and deserve to be part of this elite group. or by allowing this behavior am I smacking every eagle scout in the face......

 

Regardless of what we think an eagle scout should or shouldn't be, the rank is earned by scouts who complete the requirements as written.  There is no arbitrary standard of what is the finest or not, there is a defined standard.  As the scoutmaster, you have outs with requirement 2 and 6, and if you think it is the right thing to do, that is your prerogative.

[Dmward 2]

So, a little longer reply here.  Background: In my personal and professional life, I've had more than a few encounters with drug use.  In my Scouting life, I've had more than a few encounters with drug use.

 

Its easy to let your mind spiral out of control, and worry about a bunch of hypothetical long-term ancillary problems and solutions.

 

I'd start by thinking only about this one kid.  Is he invested in your troop and your program?  Does he attend and participate in meetings and outings?  Does he hold leadership positions, and execute them well?  Ignore the drug issue for a second - just what's your gut feel about this kid?  Is he a good kid with his heart in the right place who needs a swift kick in the pants?  Is he apathetic to scouting and your program, and just doing the bare minimum to get by?  Does he actively cause problems and lead others down a dangerous path?  

 

Step two: talk to the kid as a mentor.  Not as a friend, not as a fact finder, not as a judge. Just talk to the kid, and address the elephant in the room.  Hear him out, ask clarifying questions.  Explain that you can't understand how a Scout would want to earn the Eagle award, but repeatedly make such poor decisions.  Leave it open ended, and see what he says.

 

In my experience, at this point, the problem solves itself in a majority of cases.  If he can't answer, or reveals that he's not really motivated to earn Eagle, then that answers your question.  Those of us with our hearts and souls in the program rightly treat Eagle as a holy grail - but we can forget that not all scouts feel the same way.  If its just not important to him, then it seems like an easy decision for you to make.  As you may have surmised, I can be a bit of a bleeding heart, and am maybe too generous with second chances.  But I'm at least a little practical, and recognize that scouting isn't always what is needed is some of these cases.  I don't treat marijuana possession as an unforgivable sin, but if you want my help, we at least need some common ground to work off of.  If that common ground is the value of Scouting and the importance of the Eagle rank, I can work with that.  But if we don't share those values, I'm not going to force them on you.  And I won't feel the least bit bad when we mutually agree that continuation in Scouting, or in rank advancement, is off the table for you.

 

(The other side of the coin here is, if the scout doesn't value Scouting or Eagle, then don't expect withholding those things to be effective in teaching a lesson.  Losing something you don't value isn't much of an inconvenience.  And may in fact be desirable for him, if his parents are all that are driving his reluctant participation in Scouting anyway.)

 

Now if the scout offers some compelling explanation at this point, it makes your job harder.  It may give you the opportunity to make a very real, very big difference in someone's life.  But its not going to be easy for you.

 

Be careful around pseudo-legal hand waving and such.  FWIW, in my experience, the story still doesn't quite make a ton of sense...  Round here anyway, a 17 year old caught twice with a small amount of pot wouldn't be making waves like this.  Jail time wouldn't be likely.  (Note that the "juvenile system" refers to the court system and processes surrounding it, it doesn't necessarily mean juvenile detention, aka jail).  So either the rumor spill has bent the truth a bit, or there's more going on here than just a bit of pot.

 

And on the topic of the rumor mill, as well as your duty to the other families in the troop.  Rumors are dangerous.  We teach our scouts to act with integrity, think critically, separate fact from conjecture, and be empathetic.  Participating in, or making decisions based on a rumor mill isn't compatible with that good behavior.  Now, I understand that its a real thing, with real implications, and you need to deal with it.

 

What do we train our scouts to do?  Do the right thing, even if the right thing is not the easy thing, or the popular thing.  The young man in question obviously failed at this.  He failed himself, his troop, and in a way, he failed you personally.  Be careful not to give in to peer pressure yourself, and let rumors and threats guide you down the wrong path.

 

Its a crappy situation, and I don't envy you.  But I've been there before, and I'll be there again.  Long story short, I'd encourage you to approach this first from the perspective of how you can effectively mentor this scout, and then balance that with the needs/opinions of the rest of the troop - not the other way around.  I'll leave it at that, and wish you the best of luck.

Thankyou, this is the best incite I've received so far. your right, the information I have is "rumor" and not official. never will be because he is a minor regardless of the source. being caught with "weed" is not a factor, Im glad its not something worse like herion ect, Its the poor choice taking the weed to school knowing the consequences if he gets caught. I don't want to join the Rumor mill that's not who I am. I also have to be very carful with what I say and post.  the jail comment...well that part would be true if one of the charges is "intent to distribute".  again Im not looking at actual crimes or charges may be. I will never know official facts unless the family tells me, highly unlikely... Im looking at the decision he made engaging in criminal behavior, twice. The boy just makes enough meetings and event to stay within our attendance policy.  and did complete leadership requirements needed. nothing above that but again that's all we require. Ive been doing a lot of thinking on of what my recommendation will be but the committee has final say. things like should I allow him to finish his project and not sign his review and let him go appeal and get his eagle without a troop ceremony.... I do struggle with this entire issue, its heartbreaking.....

[Dmward 2]

Regardless of what we think an eagle scout should or shouldn't be, the rank is earned by scouts who complete the requirements as written.  There is no arbitrary standard of what is the finest or not, there is a defined standard.  As the scoutmaster, you have outs with requirement 2 and 6, and if you think it is the right thing to do, that is your prerogative.

your somewhat right, some of the requirements are a standard of character... so then  he did not complete all requirements based on the character requirements  

[qwazse 4350]

Around here, our unit committees sit on EBoRs with a district representative moderating them. So, in our situation what they know via their school/law/clergy professions would come into play regardless of what they could tell me.

 

That may not be the case where you are.

 

Also, it feels like half of our most vocal parents wind up raising boys with exactly the problems they complain about in some other older scout. Keep that in mind as you put up with the "cross-talk".

[DuctTape 1231]

there is a eagle project contract for every eagle project. my mind is made up about him not deserving eagle at this time, struggling with allowing him to still be part of our troop. many factors and ramifications apply here

 

This response to my query about the troop owning the project has me even more confused. Would it be possible to elaborate?

[David CO 1783]

his eagle project is not complete, if the decision is made to remove to boy from the troop he can not complete the project. the troop owns the project and will take it over. he can move on to another troop and still get his eagle but he will be 18 in 8 months. If he is found guilty in a court of law of criminal behavior it then becomes a council issue and the boy will be banned from boyscouts 

 

It makes sense to me.  I think it means the troop will not leave the beneficiary of the eagle project with a half-finished job. The troop will step up and finish it.

 

Am I wrong?

 

I think this is a very good idea.  

Edited May 6, 2017 by David CO

[Sentinel947 1205]

It makes sense to me.  I think it means the troop will not leave the beneficiary of the eagle project with a half-finished job. The troop will step up and finish it.

 

Am I wrong?

 

I think this is a very good idea.

 

I think it would be ideal for the young man to finish it. Its an important life lesson. But if he were to refuse, then yes the Troop should take it on.

[TAHAWK 1420]

One also has to accept the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty.  There seems to be a lot of conclusion jumping on limited information. 

The opinion asked for is based on fact we are asked to accept for purposes of advising the OP.  Happens here all the time.  Change the facts and you change the outcome.

 

Felony behavior this time?  Probably if jail is mandatory for a minor.

Edited May 6, 2017 by TAHAWK

[Stosh 3452]

If the boy does not get jail time, I would ask him to finish the project whether he gets his eagle or not.  It would say a lot about his character and dedication to scouting.  There are a lot of good Life scouts out there in the world doing a world of good.

 

If he is incarcerated, it might be just until he's 18 and I would be open to him serving as an ASM if his attitude changes.  Some of the best teachers against such illegal activities are those that have gone through it. I for one can't say, "Been there, done that." and carry only a SM credential on it.  If I have an ASM that says that, his credibility to influence young lives is tremendous.

 

Just make sure that regardless of one's decision it doesn't involve burning any bridges unless the scout himself does it.

[David CO 1783]

I would personally be opposed to having a convicted drug offender as an ASM, but my pastor and bishop would probably allow it.  

 

Though I have some firmly held opinions, I am not a dictator.  I don't expect to always get my way.

Edited May 7, 2017 by David CO