The PLC Has Decided: Mixed Aged Patrols in May

[Sentinel947 1205]

Yup. Exactly. 

 

Get a high wind evening and that bag starts to sway? It may hold 98% of the time just fine. It's that 2% you want to guard against. Been hungry for a few days one time because gear failed (rope, caribiners, someone's knot skills) and took a few days to re-supply. As soon as I got home I went in to my climbing gear and got my good stuff out.

 

As God as my witness, I will never go hungry again. 

The lightweight packer in screams at the idea of a 5 ounce carabiner.... but at the risk of going hungry, that's a weight I'd be happy to schlep around.

[TAHAWK 1420]

I use a pulley, works really good. 

Of course, you need rope that cannot jump the groove and get wedged between the pulley and it's frame.

 

(One of those learning by bad experience things.)

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Problem we had with the S 'biner was a specific type of bear hang. I think it's the PCT method the Scouts were taught that day (old school method I was taught had no problem, but even Philmont has changed to a double line method). The method includes a stick and a carabiner. S'biner will have the rope slip into the bottom half, and locks it in place so it cannot come down at all.

 

Back on topic. Because I'm ADD (SQUIRRELL ) I came up with an outline to for me to use when talking to the other adults.

 

1. Feels like Cub Scouts at times at meetings.

1. When being corrected, after one adults talks, the rest are just repeating what the first one said, wasting time to get what needs to be done, done.
2. It undermines Scout’s authority and responsibility
3. Some Scouts don’t listen to the older Scouts as a result.
4. Some Scouts don’t worry about details because the adults will intervene and do it for them.
5. Scouts will not ask their PLs or SPL, but go directly to adults.
6. They cannot learn for themselves with adults interfering.
7. Some other Scouts feel that the adults do not trust them/respect them to get do what they are supposed to on their own. Why bother trying?

 

1. OBSERVATION: Meeting room is loud and distracting, adults adding to it.

 

1. Interference on camp outs is a problem.

1. They get conflicting directions from different adults.
2. If a Scout tells them to do something, and an adult tell them something different, they will automatically do what the adult wants without explaining to the adult why they are doing what they are doing or supposed to be doing.  An example would be NSP and KP this Sunday.
3. Repeat of undermining authority and responsibility above.
4. Some Scouts feel they are being blamed for things they are not responsible for.
5. OBSERVATION: Kids these days are so use to adults telling them exactly what to do, when to do it, and how to do it, that they cannot think for themselves. And they will listen to adults over other kids any day. Example Older Scout Patrol and KP.

 

1. Recommendations

1. Only two adults in the meeting room: SM and 1 other.

1. Scouts want Mr. _____ or Mr. ____  ( and no they don't want me 'cause I talk too much )
2. Others will be invited to teach classes or make announcements as needed.

1. Adults to interact with the SPL on the camp outs.

1. Limits the conflicting directions.
2. Allows the PLC more authority and responsibility.

1. Give the PLC and a few other Scouts the authority and responsibility to grow themselves and the troop.

1. Have more PLC meetings, preferably monthly.
2. Adults go through the SPL to make suggestions and recommendations to improve.
3. Always have the youth running stuff and having ownership.

1. Older Scouts were ticked off with the new patrol set ups UNTIL they learned the PLC decided on a completely random method of selection and not adult appointed.

1. Youth teaching as much as possible.
2. Get PLC members and select others the ability to sign off on Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class advancement.

1. Shows trust to the older Scouts.
2. Gives responsibility to the older Scouts
3. Shows younger Scouts that the PLC is in charge and need to be listened to
4. Can inspire and motivate Scouts to advance.
5. Improves discipline
6. Keeps older Scouts’ skills up to speed and even improve, with continued practice.

Any other suggestions?

[Krampus 696]

 

Any other suggestions?

 

Yeah, unless it is a safety or disciplinary issue, adults don't delivery any of these messages. Nor should the adults step in. The PL or SPL delivers them. If the adult (read: registered and trained Scouter, not parents) has to say anything they go through the PL or SPL.

 

Lastly, when giving criticism use the "Sandwich Principle": Good thing + Thing being criticized using a positive tone and example + Good thing.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Krampus

[Stosh 3452]

The boys already have parents.... they don't need a half dozen more when they go camping.

[Sentinel947 1205]

 

1. Adults to interact with the SPL on the camp outs.

1. Limits the conflicting directions.
2. Allows the PLC more authority and responsibility.

1. Give the PLC and a few other Scouts the authority and responsibility to grow themselves and the troop.

Any other suggestions?

 

Adults interact with the SM. Those SM's and maybe ASM's interact with the SPL. That will help cut down on the barrage of  "helpful advice" that will simply paralyze your SPL. Same goes for PL's. 

 

I love that you are getting this all written down. It helps keep you organized and on message when you start pitching changes to the skeptical. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Sentinel947

[Stosh 3452]

As SM I am the only one that can assign an adult to work with any boy(s) during an activity, and that is assigned only if a PL requests it. 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Long, Rough nite.

 

SPL opened the meeting, a few anoucnements given, then the told to prep menus and duties roster for camporee The patrols split off. Instead of the discussing the issues, a bunch different conversations broke out. No working on the matter. Little frustrated When the patrols came back, they were asked if they completed the task of menu, food list, and duty roster. NSP didn't finish the any of the task. SPL was going to give them until Monday to come up with a menu and price, when one ASM stepped in and said since they could not do their task  in the time allowed, and since they had so many issues with KP, that he would do the menu, duty roster, and shopping list for them, and that they can wake up when he does and start breakfast and KP, and he wakes up at 4AM. I'm not going to make a scene in front of the scouts But one of the other leaders is ticked. So ticked he asked for the camporee payment back because his son is not going to camporee because he and the patrol is being set up for failure. Instead the son will be joining dad on a recon of the trail we are now doing in May.

 

Since the adults were not meeting, I need to calm down, and one of the Scouts needs a book I have, I drive home to get it. Come back the adult decided to meet after all. They agree that multiple adults giving conflicting directions is a problem. Adults are to go through SM. GREAT I"M GOOD WITH THAT.

 

But I mention how the leaders don't have any real authority and in the case of the NSP, the TG is ignored by the rest of the patrol. I suggested that we give the PLC and select others the power to sign off advancement. Leader who did the menuy and duty roster said  HECK NO THEY AREN'T READY, they don't know their stuff. name two scouts who effectively taught a class, and I mentioned how the wilderness survival and backpacking classes that were done. "Those aren't basic skills, how many can do their knots" was the answer. Right now it's one and done" And I replied, "That's because we are not letting them use those skills on a regular basis by letting them teach. In medicine it 'see one, do one, teach one." and we need to let them start teaching.

 

As you can imagine it was getting really heated.

 

Believe it or not, it was the new crossover leader who calmed things down. He said he doesn't know if he's ready for Scouts to sign off on rank yet, or if he will ever ( I can respect that he's new and hasn't seen it in action), but maybe we should assign an ASM to each patrol to work directly with the PLs and get them up to speed, and maybe have them sign advancement in the near future. I warned about Webelos III, and he admits that's an issue we ALL need ro be wary of and recognize it int the others, AND TAKE ACTION when needed.

 

It's a compromise and he suggested we meet separately from a meeting nit eto discuss this prior to the patrols being reoganized to get ourselves organized. I can live with it. And I hope it works

 

On a diffeerent note, I've been talking to the wife about all this. She told me point blank that she is "uncomfortable sending MY scouts to Troop XYZ until the adults get their act together." She's taking ownership of her Scouts and looking after their best interests.

[MattR 2660]

Oy.

 

Any other suggestions?

Your wife seems to have nailed this on the head. Before anyone worries about fixing problems related to boy led, the issue of adult led needs to be solved, and I don't mean the adults should lead the troop. I mean the adults need their own leadership.

 

The asm that yelled at the nsp patrol threatening to wake them up at 4am ... priceless.

 

Adults are angry at each other.

 

Everyone wants to go through the SM, but he's not around?

 

I can certainly believe the adults are frustrated. After 7 pages I'm not sure what all the issues are but the adults sound like a bad patrol with 30 extra years of birthday candles. They really don't have a clear view of what needs to be done and they all have their own ideas. Not much communication is going on. I hate to say this but assigning one adult per patrol won't fix any of this.

 

So, I agree with the new parent that said meet another nite and get a consistent message for the boys. What that message is is another story. Some things that it depends on are how strong is the SPL? Is he good enough to help the PLs do their job? If he said he'd give the nsp another week to get a menu together but doesn't plan on following up on that then he's just kicking the can down the road. If he plans to call the troop guides up to find out what went wrong then he's great.

 

I'm not sure the TG being ignored by his patrol will be solved by giving him authority to sign off on advancement. Sure, you want a confident TG, but it seems to me the thing that's missing is understanding what teamwork is about. It could also be that one troop guide is not enough for the scouts in that NSP. Maybe he needs help. I use two per patrol. There's lots of showing the scouts what to do and two can do a much better job. There's also more opportunity for the TGs to screw around with the scouts. Respect is not just about the power of signing off requirements, it's also about creating a relationship. Playing with the younger scouts will do a lot to let them know that there's a time to have fun and a time to be serious and that the TG can be trusted to ensure the new scouts are getting what they want. The keyword here is trust. The young scouts trust the TG. The TG trusts the adults will back him and train him. The adults trust the TG to do his job.

[Stosh 3452]

It's going to be pretty difficult to teach leadership when there are no leaders that know what leadership is.  The adult that takes over the NSP and mandates what's going to happen at 4:00 am, is not taking care of anyone other than himself and his ego and his dominance attitude.

 

 

Long, Rough nite.

 

SPL opened the meeting, a few anoucnements given, then the told to prep menus and duties roster for camporee The patrols split off. Instead of the discussing the issues, a bunch different conversations broke out. No working on the matter. Little frustrated When the patrols came back, they were asked if they completed the task of menu, food list, and duty roster. NSP didn't finish the any of the task.

 

Because as you mention later, the TG is basically non-functioning.   NSP PL is also non-functioning, neither of them did anything to take care of the boys   Problem: total lack of leadership.  As a matter of fact they are so far down the food chain that they couldn't even accomplish a simple management task of coming up with a menu.  These boys are at ground zero, with no leadership.

 

SPL was going to give them until Monday to come up with a menu and price, when one ASM stepped in and said since they could not do their task  in the time allowed, and since they had so many issues with KP, that he would do the menu, duty roster, and shopping list for them, and that they can wake up when he does and start breakfast and KP, and he wakes up at 4AM. I'm not going to make a scene in front of the scouts

 

No, it was not your place to step in on this, but now we can see that the SPL is totally non-functioning as well.  Did he step up and say, "With all due respect Mr. Buttin, it is my responsibility to work with the boys, not yours.  I will handle it."  NOPE, he stood back and let the adult take over.  He, too, was not taking care of his boys at this point.

 

But one of the other leaders is ticked. So ticked he asked for the camporee payment back because his son is not going to camporee because he and the patrol is being set up for failure. Instead the son will be joining dad on a recon of the trail we are now doing in May.

 

So not only are the boys not involved in the choices of the troop, the parents are stepping in a making choices as to whether or not their son will participate in activities.   This "other leader" is looking out only for himself and his son, he cares nothing about anyone else.  No leadership here, he's not taking care of his boys.

 

Since the adults were not meeting, I need to calm down, and one of the Scouts needs a book I have, I drive home to get it. Come back the adult decided to meet after all. They agree that multiple adults giving conflicting directions is a problem. Adults are to go through SM. GREAT I"M GOOD WITH THAT.

 

And we'll see how long that lasts, the adults are involved in an ego driven power struggle here and the boys are the ones that are suffering

 

But I mention how the leaders don't have any real authority

 

Giving boys responsibility (management) but no authority (leadership) to do it is a recipe for disaster and will not work 100% of the time.

 

and in the case of the NSP, the TG is ignored by the rest of the patrol.

 

Then why don't the adults allow the NSP to dump the TG they won't listen to and select a TG they will listen to?  I would think that solution should be easy enough to figure out and remedy in about 10 minute's time.

 

I suggested that we give the PLC and select others the power to sign off advancement.

 

My PL's sign off on their patrol member's advancement all the time.  The only problem I have ever had with it is the PL's are sometimes more strict about doing it perfectly that the boys get frustrated.  The PL takes care of his boys and advancement is part of that care-giving.

 

Leader who did the menuy and duty roster said  HECK NO THEY AREN'T READY, they don't know their stuff. name two scouts who effectively taught a class, and I mentioned how the wilderness survival and backpacking classes that were done. "Those aren't basic skills, how many can do their knots" was the answer. Right now it's one and done" And I replied, "That's because we are not letting them use those skills on a regular basis by letting them teach. In medicine it 'see one, do one, teach one." and we need to let them start teaching.

 

Yep, I was right, the adults agreed that everything was to go through the SM and this oaf is spouting off yet again.  That "solution" didn't last very long.  That ASM needs to go or change his attitude.  He's not the SM and his word means noting.  He serves at the pleasure of the SM.

 

By the way, if the PL is going to be signing off on the advancement of his patrol members, he better be teaching his boys how to teach.  All my boys learn to teach by teaching the square knot.  Yep, while not yet Scout Rank, they are already teaching!!!!

 

PL: (Stands up)  My name is Mr. Smith and I am going to teach you how to tie a square knot.  Just watch what I'm doing, you will get a chance to show me later.  I have here a piece of rope one end in each hand.  My left hand is lazy and is going to just stand around while my right hand is going to do all the work.  Right hand rope guy goes in front of lazy left hand and tucks under.  Then from over on the other side comes back in front of lazy lefty and tucks under again.  You have the square knot.    Now take your rope and tie the knot.  If you have questions just ask. 

 

Okay Johnny, teach me how to tie the square knot.

 

Johnny: (Stands up) My name is Mr. Jones and I am going to teach you how to tie a square knot....

 

PL.  Okay Johnny, very good.  Tommy, teach me how to tie the square knot.

 

Tommy: (Stands up) My name is Mr. Olson and I am going to teach you how to tie a square knot....

 

How many adults does it take to participate in this process?  NOT A SINGLE ADULT!!!  They are all too busy drinking coffee.

 

As you can imagine it was getting really heated.

 

Believe it or not, it was the new crossover leader who calmed things down. He said he doesn't know if he's ready for Scouts to sign off on rank yet, or if he will ever ( I can respect that he's new and hasn't seen it in action), but maybe we should assign an ASM to each patrol to work directly with the PLs and get them up to speed, and maybe have them sign advancement in the near future. I warned about Webelos III, and he admits that's an issue we ALL need ro be wary of and recognize it int the others, AND TAKE ACTION when needed.

 

Maybe if they they had been taught correctly in the first place on how to teach, each PL would not need some interfering ASM to get in his face.  Every time something looks amiss in the troop does NOT require having some adult jump in and make it worse!

 

With this process you've outlined thus far it is obvious that the boys haven't been trained and so there is no way anyone is going to trust them and letting them lead is just pie in the sky!  LOOK AT YOUR SIGNATURE LINE !!!!!

 

It's a compromise and he suggested we meet separately from a meeting nit eto discuss this

 

Discsuss what?  The adults can't lead and instead just mess things up? 

 

prior to the patrols being reoganized

 

Patrol organization is not the problem, why mess with that?

 

to get ourselves organized.

 

Simple training in taking care of your boys would go a long way to "getting the adults organized"  One does not need to be organized to drink coffee.

 

I can live with it. And I hope it works

 

Until there is a major shift in adult attitude, it won't.

 

On a diffeerent note, I've been talking to the wife about all this. She told me point blank that she is "uncomfortable sending MY scouts to Troop XYZ until the adults get their act together." She's taking ownership of her Scouts and looking after their best interests.

 

And now we have a real leader stepping up and doing the right thing.  Take a lesson from the MRS. !  She's taking ownership of her Scouts and looking after their best interests.  THAT IS LEADERSHIP IN IT'S IDEAL FORM!  If she's only interested in the welfare of her boys, she cannot make a mistake!

 

I vote to have your Mrs. be the SM!

 

I might be breaking every "guy" rule in the book with this advice, but you had better start listing to the Mrs. she's doing it right.

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Stosh

[Krampus 696]

On a diffeerent note, I've been talking to the wife about all this. She told me point blank that she is "uncomfortable sending MY scouts to Troop XYZ until the adults get their act together." She's taking ownership of her Scouts and looking after their best interests.

 

I'd agree. That's a mess.

 

The boys are better off fumbling their way around their meals than having "Super Dad" try to "handle" everything for them. 

 

Just makes you want to shake your head sometimes.

[Eagledad 2779]

The sheep are scattered because the dog is missing. The adults are trying to work it out, but without the SM giving some direction, all the troop has is chiefs with no indians. We don't know the personalities of all the players here, but this is looking like a UC, CO, CC problem to me. I think the troop has good well intentioned adults willing to make the program go. But without a vision and plan, I can't see how it can get much better. 

 

Barry

[blw2 433]

Adults interact with the SM. Those SM's and maybe ASM's interact with the SPL. That will help cut down on the barrage of  "helpful advice" that will simply paralyze your SPL. Same goes for PL's. 

 

I love that you are getting this all written down. It helps keep you organized and on message when you start pitching changes to the skeptical. 

 

I've tried to "suggest" this sort of approach several times already....

as when I had something I needed to give to a scout, or request, or whatever....

I've asked to the SM (or ASM if he's not around) if he could give this (or ask, or tell) the SPL to do XYZ.

Or suggested to other adults when they have started something or need something, that they could ask the SM or SPL to round up some scouts to do it.....

 

Without fail, I feel like they think I'm a bit weird, they either go ahead and do it themselves or they just go straight to a scout rather than through the leadership....

Once I had a Den Chief handbook that I was going to donate to the troop library.  The SM and SPL were together when I did this... i think I asked the SM if I could give this to his SPL.... which was nodded, then when i gave it to the SPL saying something like "I have this for your Librarian, a donation"... I sensed that he thought it was weird too.

[blw2 433]

This thread has me thinking

If I can roll it smoothly into the next committee meeting, i think I'm going to somehow suggest to the committee and ask the SM what he thinks about the idea that maybe we adults should be going through the SM to the SPL instead of working directly with scouts so much,

 

and at some point I also want to suggest instead of making so many announcements ourselves, that we should be passing the info to the scout leadership that way, and let them figure out how to disseminate it...

 

They all have said many times, and the scouts have said that they want this, so it's not a new concept... but maybe a suggestion at a meeting might spur it along a bit....

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Oy.

 

OY is right.

 

Your wife seems to have nailed this on the head. Before anyone worries about fixing problems related to boy led, the issue of adult led needs to be solved, and I don't mean the adults should lead the troop. I mean the adults need their own leadership.

 

I'm proud of the wife for lots of different reasons. I joke around that you know you got a keeper when the fiancé is willing to do the AT for the honeymoon. But in all seriousness, she's not the WDL yet, that's June 1st, but she is already planning on getting them ready for Boy Scouts. She knows how it's suppose to be, she's been registered with 2 troops and a post/crew previously. And she has concerns. And she is doing her job by taking care of her Scouts. Thankfully none of the Cub Parents are seeing this except her. And I wan tit resolved ASAP.

 

The asm that yelled at the nsp patrol threatening to wake them up at 4am ... priceless.

 

Don't get me started again on that. Part of me wanted to be a smart aleck and say since he picked, let me do the shopping, and I would pull every single cooking trick I know and have learned from the SM to make NSP's cooking and cleaning easy: pre-cooked foods and microwave heat and serve meals.  BUT, what would the Scouts learn, and what example would I be?

 

Biggest challenge is that he's one of the Eagles from the troop's glory days. He has visions of the troop returning to that glory. But it's not the same troop. The dynamics are not the same. AND that troop did fold. He blames the former CM of the pack for sending Scouts to different troops, but just maybe the troop had issues that he couldn't, or does not want, to see, that lead to it's demise. Yes I believe that sometimes punishment is needed. But not for lack of duty roster, menu, and shopping list. AND the person who should be making them get up early so they can do cooking and KP on time is the SPL, not him.

 

The guy has a ton of outdoor knowledge, skills, and abilities. And he's one of the guys who took care of me when I was injured. So he's a really good guy to have in a bad situation. But he doesn't trust the scouts, especially his step-son and son. My personal opinion is both are in his shadow. Step-son is really quiet and doesn't have the self confidence yet to lead, despite having the knowledge, skills, abilities, AND respect of all the older Scouts in his patrol, as well as some of the younger ones. As for his son, he's in the NSP. So there are some challenges with him. Dad is constantly on his case, even when the other adults are trying to get him away from his son and the NSP. He doesn't care what the other adults think or say, it's his son and he is doing what he wants. So the son is constantly looking to him for guidance and help, and really doesn't try things on his own UNLESS dad is around. Heck the adults talked a few months back about not working with our kids, with the exception of me working with my son the TG.

 

Adults are angry at each other.

 

It's getting there. We all have a lot of respect for each other. But sometimes things come out that aggravate the heck out of someone. What's challenging is that you have 2 people who are passionate about Scouting, and we see a problem. But we have 2 different solutions, and two different ways of going about expressing those solutions. He's direct, bold, and no-nonsense. Essentially more hands on.  I' m more of the think about it, see what's in the best interest of the boys, and see if they can figure it out. Essentially more hands off.

 

Everyone wants to go through the SM, but he's not around?

 

SM has some serious health issues, really needs to step down, and no one wants to stress him out. Plus he was not there the entire weekend, but was there with the KP issues Sunday AM.

 

We have an ASM in the wings, but for some reason the committee doesn't want to commit to him. I don't know it's the job he has, if it's the step-son going to be a Tiger, or some other reason.

 

I can certainly believe the adults are frustrated. After 7 pages I'm not sure what all the issues are but the adults sound like a bad patrol with 30 extra years of birthday candles. They really don't have a clear view of what needs to be done and they all have their own ideas. Not much communication is going on. I hate to say this but assigning one adult per patrol won't fix any of this.

 

So, I agree with the new parent that said meet another nite and get a consistent message for the boys. What that message is is another story. Some things that it depends on are how strong is the SPL? Is he good enough to help the PLs do their job? If he said he'd give the nsp another week to get a menu together but doesn't plan on following up on that then he's just kicking the can down the road. If he plans to call the troop guides up to find out what went wrong then he's great.

 

I'm not sure the TG being ignored by his patrol will be solved by giving him authority to sign off on advancement. Sure, you want a confident TG, but it seems to me the thing that's missing is understanding what teamwork is about. It could also be that one troop guide is not enough for the scouts in that NSP. Maybe he needs help. I use two per patrol. There's lots of showing the scouts what to do and two can do a much better job. There's also more opportunity for the TGs to screw around with the scouts. Respect is not just about the power of signing off requirements, it's also about creating a relationship. Playing with the younger scouts will do a lot to let them know that there's a time to have fun and a time to be serious and that the TG can be trusted to ensure the new scouts are getting what they want. The keyword here is trust. The young scouts trust the TG. The TG trusts the adults will back him and train him. The adults trust the TG to do his job.

 

Part of having troop officers sign off, not just the TG, is to give them some authority as well as responsibility. My thinking is that if they have the responsibility of teaching, they also need the authority to sign off. If they have the responsibility of assigning positions in the duty roster and supervising the cooking, cleaning etc, then they need the authority to sign off.

 

My thinking is that if you give them the responsibility AND authority, they will take it more seriously and it will improve the older scouts performances. Heck very first activity I did with the troop, was first aid at the annual lock in since I'm an AHA instructor and FA MBC. I told those Scout I wanted them teaching certain skills correlating to their ranks, with me teaching CPR and AED use ( and I did that because my boss didn't want the Scouts doing running the AEDs).  They did fine.  And I want them to do that again.