Signs that your unit might be Adult Led

[blw2 433]

If your adults address the troop or patrols (unless it is a health or safety issue), you are adult-led.

yeah, after last nights meeting I'm pretty confident that all these little yellow or red flags I have been noticing are not lying.

I came into the meeting a little late, but what I saw was the patrols all sitting at separate tables doing something, while the SM and an assistant or two were roaming the room watching an listening.... ok so far i think, although arguably it might be better if if they would have joined me and the other committee members and ASM's in the back of the room

 

Then at some point, it very closely resembled a pack meeting.  The SM started addressing the troop, with announcements and such.  He then asked the adults one at a time if we had anything to add... a few did.

Meanwhile, the kid at the front was sitting looking bored as a rock, elbows on the table and head in hands.  (I think he was the ASPL since  the SPL couldn't make it)

 

there were some other things too, but it was a very adult lead meeting for sure.

 

I certainly don't want to throw stones, but just bringing it up for this discussion... for learning.

The troop certainly has come a long way in the last 1-1/2 years or so when they had dwindled to a very small fully adult run group.  They still keep saying "we are working on it" or "we are trying to change"

Now that I'm on the committee I'm going to have to start quoting Yoda at the committee mtgs.

 

Who makes what decisions? How long is a committee meeting compared to a PLC meeting?

 

Also, it's not a binary thing where it is or isn't boy led. We just got a foot of snow and I got email from our co saying they'd tell us this morning whether the building would be closed. I forwarded it to the spl and made it very clear the adults would do nothing to get this info out. The spl is doing great. Some parents, however, aren't real happy. In a nutshell, they don't trust the scouts. I'm sending out a lot more email telling the parents to back off than what it would have taken to just solve this on my own. Are we scout led? We're trying.

Good job I think.  no question that in my case the SM or other committee member would send the email

 

 

Food at COH ... nit picking ... usually it's the moms who bring a pot luck dish.  IMHO, this is a learning path.  Recently our older scouts started texting each other and we find food mysteriously showing up at troop meetings.  One kid brings plates.  Another cup cakes.  Another mountain dew.  SM and I just smile.  So what if parents bring food to COH.  ... SCOUTS MIMIC BEHAVIOR THEY SEE.  IMHO, that's the best way for us to teach.  We demonstrate behaviors we want the scouts to learn.  ... It's sort of fun to see them now doing their own activities.

 

oh yes, true enough.... it's a nitpicky thing for sure.... but that was sort of my thought starting the thread.  Little signs you might see....

 

 

 

• Emails ... in our troop ... emails are for parents.  Kids don't really read emails.  They text and they text a lot if your troop is active.  Parents want to know what's going on.  I'd rather be sending them email to keep them up to date then to have them nag their kid about the details. 

 

yeah, prob makes sense for sure.  If I was the one doing it, I would try to make it clear in every case, by the wording in my email.... that either I am sending at the request of the scout leadership, OR I am Sending to that parents as a courtesy update

 

 

 

- What are the activities?  are they things the scouts would enjoy?  Odds are if they are, the adults are listening to the scouts and letting the scouts drive the program.

 

- Are the scouts having fun? 

 

- Most importantly, when you look at the troop ... do you see scouts with scouts ... or do you see scouts with adults mixed in.   Scouts need time together to form bonds of friendship, to storm, to norm and to learn to perform together.  IMHO, that's the best indication of boy led. 

 

....

 

And to be honest, the whole "boy led" diatribe is more about adults comparing who's troop is doing it right and knocking the other guy's troop or the other scout leaders.  It has very little practical to communicate about helping the scouts.  I really would not mind never ever again hearing the term boy led. 

 

 

I do see your point that the term is used maybe too often and does get tiresome

but

scout enjoyment is I think one of the things, maybe the first thing, that erodes very quickly with adult led methods.

 

 

As a new committee member I won't be able to significantly turn the ship.  So, I think I'll prob have to learn to let some of this go.  Seems like an ASM or even more so the SM has the most control to steer it.

I get that they are working on it.... but honestly it seems to me that if we are willing to let the kids fail as was previously mentioned, it doesn't have to be all that long of a process... if one were to really practice never doing something a boy can do.

[Eagledad 2792]

 

And to be honest, the whole "boy led" diatribe is more about adults comparing who's troop is doing it right and knocking the other guy's troop or the other scout leaders.  It has very little practical to communicate about helping the scouts.  I really would not mind never ever again hearing the term boy led. 

 

Man oh man do I agree with this. What Fred describes is the trend I've seen on the forum the last few years.

 

Our discussions these days are more about drawing lines and defining good vs bad. In reality, scouting for both the adults and boys is a growing process toward giving the scouts the best opportunity toward growth. A patrol method program is proven over the years the best way to do  that in the BSA.

 

But that doesn't mean that all approaches to patrol method, boy run, boy lead and so on are the same. The saying goes that the troop in size and personality will resemble the skills and personality of the SM. THAT IS NOT A BAD THING. 

 

We need to encourage and give examples of what has worked for our programs without worry of being accused of being bad. As we hang around this forum and other places of knowledge, we grow to learn of different ideas, experiences and approaches to improving the program. We mature and gradually change to understand what we really want scouts to gain from their experiences.

 

I once said before, we ask our adults to sit back and relax for six months before they start asking questions of the program. Then we can have an intelligent discussion. I love talking scouting stuff, so I'm never defensive. I know how it all works and like helping other adults gain the confidence. And sometimes new adults have a point about some aspect of the program. But it is hard to have a discussion with an inexperienced parent who attacks the whole program and wants to completely change it to something other than what they joined. I know the experience because I had more than one parent ask me to turn the troop into an Eagle mill type of program. Why did they join?

 

Barry

[qwazse 4365]

yeah, after last nights meeting I'm pretty confident that all these little yellow or red flags I have been noticing are not lying.

I came into the meeting a little late, but what I saw was the patrols all sitting at separate tables doing something, while the SM and an assistant or two were roaming the room watching an listening.... ok so far i think, although arguably it might be better if if they would have joined me and the other committee members and ASM's in the back of the room

 

...

As a new committee member I won't be able to significantly turn the ship.  So, I think I'll prob have to learn to let some of this go.  Seems like an ASM or even more so the SM has the most control to steer it.

I get that they are working on it.... but honestly it seems to me that if we are willing to let the kids fail as was previously mentioned, it doesn't have to be all that long of a process... if one were to really practice never doing something a boy can do.

 

I miss my scout-house (basement of a mansion, really) as a youth where each patrol had a room.

 

Your people, like mine, might be a victim of their space. With all of the patrols in full view, it's conducive to the SM's "dropping in". In fact, our SM asked me to touch base with his youngest son's patrol because the father-son dynamic is a little rough at age 13. I'm still trying to figure out how to best do that without any semblance of leading the patrol. I think the best strategy will be an offer to the PL of particular weekends where I, along with one of their dads, can chaperon an overnight for just their patrol.

 

Anyway, pick your battles and be positive. It'll take a few campouts before you can evaluate where you can really help your troop mature.

[blw2 433]

I miss my scout-house (basement of a mansion, really) as a youth where each patrol had a room.

 

Your people, like mine, might be a victim of their space. With all of the patrols in full view, it's conducive to the SM's "dropping in". .....

 

That might be a factor, at least a small one....

 

Regardless if that plays into this or not, I love the idea of a scout hut or dedicated "room" or "rooms"

A place where they can hang their own stuff on the walls where they want to a leave it there.  A place of their own!

[Sentinel947 1205]

I'm going to venture the possibly contentious observation that being "boy lead" is a continuum. It's not as simple as an on/off switch. Any troop that has tried to shift from heavily adult organized to youth making the decisions know how much of a continuum it is. 

I realized I could try to hunt down every little thing we didn't do right. I even had a rather lengthy document typed up on the subject. (If anybody is curious how out in the weeds a troop can get, I can PM you it with redactions.)

 

 After a few months of pushing, I realized I had to prioritize what I was pushing for, and what battles were most important. I choose the patrol method as the single most important objective, and until that is accomplished, I'm ignoring the other battles. 

Our scoutmaster still addresses the whole troop on occasion. Our election structure is still whacked out. I resent the implication that it means we are totally adult lead. We're in the transition process towards a more youth led troop, and we will be even when I step aside from this troop. 

 

Always push for your troop to get better. Fight for changes like no adult announcements, no adult emails, but don't put the cart before the horse. Prioritize what's really getting in the way of your scouts making decisions and leading their program, and take care of that stuff first. 

Never, ever, let perfect be the enemy of good. 
 

Local situations, your mileage will vary. 

 

Sentinel947 

[blw2 433]

Totally agree that it's a lot about choosing the hills worth dying on.  I have come to learn that this is true in almost all things in life!

and that's exactly where I am now... I now it, now I have to settle on it

 

I was hoping that all these little flags I was seeing were just the small little things that they each are on their own merit.... but with just a very short time with the troop I'm thinking they are all kindof lumped together from a bigger systemic issue.

 

I could be and very likely am wrong, naive maybe, but I believe that while it might seem that much of this is a continuum, it really doesn't have to be.  It does seem to me that the transition could be much shorter, if the following happens.

1) the SM has the vision, and completely understand what it is that he's after

2) he lays it out for the committee chair and get's their support (or visa versa, the CC's idea and they get the SM's support)

3) The two of them present a united front in supporting each other, rip off the bandaid and lay out the vision to the scouts and the parents.  Throw out all the rules, and tell the boys very clearly that it's up to them.  Make it very clear that it is their troop. Their handbook is their guide book. The adults are there to support them, and they are in charge.  But do all this in a way to gain everyone's trust so they will give it a chance.

4) and then be very consistent in giving the scouts the authority and support, making it the SM's job to manage the adults and keep them over by the coffee pot till everyone gets used to it.

 

I can't imagine a scenario of making a fast wholesale change though, without both the CC and the SM.  Seems like ASM's, committee members, etc... aren't in a position to do it.

I can also see though, that some variables such as a CC or SM that are not in a strong and trusted place... or with some seriously negative and strong influence from other key adults, etc, maybe be huge variables to overcome.

 

I like your motto very much!

"Never, ever, let perfect be the enemy of good. "

much like the BP I keep going back too.... " the boys will get soem good form scouting, as long as the scouter does no harm." or something to that affect...

[Krampus 696]

That might be a factor, at least a small one....

 

Regardless if that plays into this or not, I love the idea of a scout hut or dedicated "room" or "rooms"

A place where they can hang their own stuff on the walls where they want to a leave it there.  A place of their own!

 

Adult oversight is not a bad thing. It gives them a chance to coach....minimally. We've all heard that adults should give "pearls of wisdom" to allow the PLs and boys to make informed decisions. So there's nothing wrong with that type of adult input. Nothing wrong with the adult leader monitoring what goes on, how patrols are behaving, etc. They can then get with the PL AFTERWARDS and counsel them on what went well, what didn't and how to handle in the future. We allow them to lead, succeed or fail. Then we advise on how to fix...or kudos to what went well.

[Sentinel947 1205]

 

I can't imagine a scenario of making a fast wholesale change though, without both the CC and the SM.  Seems like ASM's, committee members, etc... aren't in a position to do it.

I can also see though, that some variables such as a CC or SM that are not in a strong and trusted place... or with some seriously negative and strong influence from other key adults, etc, maybe be huge variables to overcome.

 

I like your motto very much!

"Never, ever, let perfect be the enemy of good. "

much like the BP I keep going back too.... " the boys will get soem good form scouting, as long as the scouter does no harm." or something to that affect...

Good observation. It's 100% impossible to do it without the SM or the CC. In my experience even with those two in place, it still will not go quickly. Especially if you encourage the Scouts to lead the transition, it will be even slower. We're on year 2, and it's going nowhere fast, but the boys are engaged, they're taking the lead. 

 

Sometimes I get frustrated with the glacial pace of progress, but I look back on where the Troop was at in 2013-2014, and I realize just how far we've come already. 

 

I liked your steps you outlined. 

[Eagledad 2792]

 

much like the BP I keep going back too.... " the boys will get soem good form scouting, as long as the scouter does no harm." or something to that affect...

Boy there are some really good things being said here. While I was the SM, I was a pretty black and white person that believed that unless a troop was boy run, it wasn't a troop. But I grew up when I worked with units at the District and Council level. I found that my black and white passion was actually driving adults away from listening to my coaching. And, I talked to a lot of families that really liked their troop and didn't want a dramatic change to their program. I matured and could see that boys were getting some good scouting even if it wasn't my perfect vision of the program. In fact, they were getting a lot of good when I took off my blinders of MY perfection. Do no harm I think says it best. 

 

Barry

[MattR 2674]

I could be and very likely am wrong, naive maybe, but I believe that while it might seem that much of this is a continuum, it really doesn't have to be.  It does seem to me that the transition could be much shorter, if the following happens.

1) the SM has the vision, and completely understand what it is that he's after

2) he lays it out for the committee chair and get's their support (or visa versa, the CC's idea and they get the SM's support)

3) The two of them present a united front in supporting each other, rip off the bandaid and lay out the vision to the scouts and the parents.  Throw out all the rules, and tell the boys very clearly that it's up to them.  Make it very clear that it is their troop. Their handbook is their guide book. The adults are there to support them, and they are in charge.  But do all this in a way to gain everyone's trust so they will give it a chance.

4) and then be very consistent in giving the scouts the authority and support, making it the SM's job to manage the adults and keep them over by the coffee pot till everyone gets used to it.

Me thinks the devil's in the details. First, just explaining anything to anyone will not be enough. I have laid it out for the committee several times, they all say yep, and then something happens and they don't even realize they're stepping in. It's getting better. Slowly. I'm also learning how better to explain it.

 

Also, just handing over the reigns to the scouts will create lots of problems, which is what you want, but there also needs to be a way for them to learn from them. This is where the adults can help a lot. They've never solved problems on their own. Of the 4 items on your list there's one word, support, that covers this. Boy led doesn't mean less work for the adults, it's just different. Training? Review? This is where Krampus' comment that there's nothing wrong with observing a patrol. What you hear from the PL afterward is likely not the whole story. Granted, sometimes I just have to walk away after I've seen enough that I really want to step in. I'd add 5) figure out what the support looks like and make sure everyone in the troop understands it, adults and scouts.

[Sentinel947 1205]

Perfect timing. 

http://scoutmastercg...-boy-led-troop/ 

[Eagledad 2792]

I agree with MattR that boy run isn't less work for adults, it's different. In fact, it might be more work because what drives many troops to be adult led is the convenience of working the group rather than the individual. Example is the uniform. It is a lot easier to dictate a troop rule of full uniforms than guiding each scout individually to make good decisions. A lot of troops take their new scouts to a different summer camp than the rest of the troop so the scouts can basically advance together to first class. Scouts take a lot longer and require more troop resources when they are given the freedom to advance at their own will.

 

Barry 

[blw2 433]

Thank you Sentinal and others....

 

Adult oversight is not a bad thing. It gives them a chance to coach....minimally. We've all heard that adults should give "pearls of wisdom" to allow the PLs and boys to make informed decisions. So there's nothing wrong with that type of adult input. Nothing wrong with the adult leader monitoring what goes on, how patrols are behaving, etc. They can then get with the PL AFTERWARDS and counsel them on what went well, what didn't and how to handle in the future. We allow them to lead, succeed or fail. Then we advise on how to fix...or kudos to what went well.

Yeah, I think I might have mislead you in my thinking.  I said ok so far, to taht... seeing the good in the monitoring.  Certainly they can't advise or coach without knowing what's going on.

 

oh, and I certainly didn't mean that in my theoretical scenario that the whole thing just be handed to the boys to let them steer it.  I just meant that it seems like it has to be put very clearly that it's their troop, their program.  Of course the adults have to be envolved... but it sure seems like its a balancing act!

[Stosh 3452]

Now that we've allowed this boy-led, adult-led idea to run into the ground, let's just high-five each other on how well we are all pleased with our troops, and move on to something a bit more practical that we can kick around for a while. 

[Eagledad 2792]

Now that we've allowed this boy-led, adult-led idea to run into the ground, let's just high-five each other on how well we are all pleased with our troops, and move on to something a bit more practical that we can kick around for a while. 

Still some gold nuggets in this ground, stosh. 

 

Barry