Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
skeptic

Another interesting article from Scoutmaster's Blog on FB; Belief structures

Recommended Posts

Yeah I agree with Rick-in-CA, we are not very good at the understanding of reverent...   My point exactly...

 

With the words of Merlyn I would say an understanding and practice of the word reverent is needed from both sides.

Edited by moosetracker
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In addition to the concept of 'reverent', I would add: What does it mean 'to respect'? It seems that it means different things to different people. We sure seem to apply the concept differently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Respect in its original Latin origin means to value enough to give it a second look. Of course over the years it has taken on other meanings which could imply just about anything nowadays.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When God makes the sun shine, it shines on both the atheists and the believers alike.  

 

Similarly, the one true God, who is the source of all love and compassion, shares these gifts with both believers and atheists.

 

Of course it is possible for an atheist to be moral.  

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

about the term 'respect',

"..over the years it has taken on other meanings which could imply just about anything nowadays."

 

I agree. "...could imply just about anything..." is, of course, one of the problems with using the term in a 'law', it allows us to "imply just about anything" from it.

I also agree with David CO, and it follows that if an atheist can be moral, then 'morality' must be capable of being derived independently from religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How would he know? What is he measuring morality against? When an atheist says he is moral, what standards is he comparing himself against?

Barry

How would the Pope know? He's the Vicar of Jesus Christ, that's how he'd know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. "...could imply just about anything..." is, of course, one of the problems with using the term in a 'law', it allows us to "imply just about anything" from it.

I also agree with David CO, and it follows that if an atheist can be moral, then 'morality' must be capable of being derived independently from religion.

 

Of course a moral code can be derived separate from religion. If religious moral code, or a code derived from an outside source of supreme power, i.e. God/god, then the onus of judgement is from that source.  As a community, the person adheres to the code out of respect and awareness of that supreme power as does everyone else that believes in that power.  On the other hand if there is no supreme power to direct, guide, or answer to, then the individual needs only to create a moral code that best works out for them.  As situations arise that require a moral choice, the non-supreme being person can alter their moral code according to what is in their best interest at the time because any direction, guiding or answering to is to oneself's own best interest.  It appears that they have a moral code and they do, but they answer only to themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And that is a good thing. It is good for individuals to take full personal responsibility for themselves and for their actions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree, because they can take a moral code of an organization (like scouting) or the moral code that was taught to them by their parents (how many of us have had mom or dad chirping in our ear if we even contemplated something that went against how we were raised?)..  

 

Religion has also many different denominations and a lot are due to one denomination splitting off into two due to disagreement on what is important or what the true meaning of something in some holy book is all about.. People choose a religion that is closest to their moral beliefs.. If they at some point disagree they can change their religion, become a stay at home religious person (like me) who considers themselves with a religion (and thus perfectly acceptable to be a BSA member) but I do not believe in a structured religion, and do not take the bible as the word of God, but more historical interpreting by men of the time, which has been rewritten and altered over time by other men who wanted to influence their people or their culture.. 

 

According to BSA, I can have my belief and my morals are not In question because I do have a form of religious belief.. Why is my religious belief really any better for moral conviction then an atheist?  It is really still my inner voice telling me what is right and what is wrong.. Sometimes my inner voice is my parents, sometimes BSA, sometimes the Jesus or God that I believe in, sometimes some little grade school teacher.. My Jesus or God may not be at all like what you picture Jesus or God (if you even are of a Christian religion, if you aren't then we have two different higher powers altogether different). Yet, an atheist can not have similar morals because they are missing some form of inner voice they equate to being that of Jesus or God (or whatever), when those figures are very individual to each and everyone of us (or at least very different based on some religious community you hang around with.)

 

Stosh - I do agree respect is also important..  But, it is different for different people..  The big difference In this last showdown was people who felt respect was keeping things as they were period,  and those who felt the current way was disrespectful, in that they were not being allowed to treat people with the curtsey they deserved,  and they were not allowed to practice their religious beliefs in BSA but forced to follow someone else's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Showdown? What showdown? There's been more than one? I've obviously missed something.

I am not sure what this 'inner voice' is that you're talking about (evidently I'm not hearing voices in my head, probably just as well too) unless you're talking about conscience and in that case I disagree. Atheists certainly can be persons of conscience just as much as religious people, at least as far as I have observed. If actions are a indication or measure of morality or conscience, atheists are no worse than religious persons.

Edited by cyclops

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well although morality, Is a standard, set by the group of people or community (religiously they are set by the groups interpretation of their holy book, or holy word, or folk lore).  The only way you as a person are able to follow the morals you are given by this community, are by learning them and having your conscience guide you on the right path to take.. If the holy word on morality were just magically there and everyone had it, there would be no need for churches, no difference in interpretation of what is morally correct and atheists would magically have the same moral code that you have, therefore no reason to deny them acceptance into BSA.. 

 

Very nice you missed the very recent argument over the inclusion of homosexuals.. We spent years where the argument came up in I&P at least every 6 months or so, and we would reargue the same argument all over again..  With the inclusion of homosexuals, the argument changed a little as those who felt persecuted felt vindicated and vica-versa..

 

You are a new member, but some new members lurk before they jump in.. If you missed the whole thing, do not worry, I am sure it will be brought up again in 6 months.

 

Do we argue about other things? Sure.. This atheist argument is one argument that comes up several times.. CoEd scouting..  Old school vs New school Scouting ( and various things in that sometimes get taken out and argued on their own merits.),  Uniform Policing   on and on.. We do love to bicker..

Edited by moosetracker
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Magic is the art of illusion.  Religion is not an illusion.

 

But yes, I do believe in miracles.  I believe in divine creation.  I believe in the real presence of God in the Holy Sacraments.  

 

I do believe that God is the creator of everything that is good, and the author of all truth, including morality.

 

God gave us morality.  He also gave us the free will to reject it.

 

Atheist do have the same moral code as we have.  They often reject it.

Edited by David CO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course a moral code can be derived separate from religion. If religious moral code, or a code derived from an outside source of supreme power, i.e. God/god, then the onus of judgement is from that source.

 

 

No, the onus of judgement is from the people who claim to speak for that god, which is still just people.

 

As a community, the person adheres to the code out of respect and awareness of that supreme power as does everyone else that believes in that power.

 

Which is why e.g. Christians agree with each other on every aspect of morality.

 

On the other hand if there is no supreme power to direct, guide, or answer to, then the individual needs only to create a moral code that best works out for them.  As situations arise that require a moral choice, the non-supreme being person can alter their moral code according to what is in their best interest at the time because any direction, guiding or answering to is to oneself's own best interest.  It appears that they have a moral code and they do, but they answer only to themselves.

 

While in contrast, people who follow god-given morals never change these morals, which is why slavery is still moral.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice you missed the very recent argument over the inclusion of homosexuals.. We spent years where the argument came up in I&P at least every 6 months or so, and we would reargue the same argument all over again..  With the inclusion of homosexuals, the argument changed a little as those who felt persecuted felt vindicated and vica-versa..

 

You are a new member, but some new members lurk before they jump in.. If you missed the whole thing, do not worry, I am sure it will be brought up again in 6 months.

 

Do we argue about other things? Sure.. This atheist argument is one argument that comes up several times.. CoEd scouting..  Old school vs New school Scouting ( and various things in that sometimes get taken out and argued on their own merits.),  Uniform Policing   on and on.. We do love to bicker..

 

I just took a look through Issues and Politics. You are correct. Amazing. I'm glad I missed all that...I just don't see why it was ever such a big deal over gay members. We've had them since I was a boy (pretty obvious that a good number of camp staff were gay, same ones every year) and I never thought much about it one way or the other, I thought it was OK with BSA. It was just one of those things and we didn't stick our noses into others' business. Is this what all this 'morality talk' is about?

Maybe not, this discussion seems to be about atheists and the DRP (thanks for pointing out the full wording, this is the first time I've read the entire thing). I'm guessing that the 'bickering' (as you called it) has shifted to a new group.

 

So atheists are not allowed? News to me. We have atheists in our unit and I've known atheists in scouting for years. What a lot of nonsense...they're as good scouters as I've ever come across and I don't buy for a minute the argument that (now that I've read some of this stuff) atheists can't be "the right kind of citizens". Hogwash.

Why is it that some of us just seem to want to exclude some of the rest of us for no good reason...that we just have to make this stuff up in order to do it?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Merlyn,  for Christians   the Bible has been interpreted and re-interpreted by men through the years, the moral code has changed through the years and the bible has countless different interpretations for each denomination..  The moral code of the bible is not a constant.. Other holy books, or folk lore are completely different and they too can be interpreted differently by many people. If you are religious but don't like the moral code of your religion, well just find a different religion that is more in line with your beliefs.

 

I also disagree that atheists choose not to follow a moral code.. Some ... sure, same as some in the religious community are not so pious.. But, they can have a moral code as good as anyone who is religious.. 

 

Cyclops - this may be a different fight, but it was probably brought on by the policy change in homosexuals..  With some people, they have won a victory so are moving on for the next battle, some see that as co-ed, others as allowing in atheists..  Personally between the two I think we will get co-ed before atheists.. BSA just doubled down on this being a religious organization and beefed up it's advancement requirements in both cub scouts & boy scouts to make sure that religious is more of a main theme.. Some of it troubles me as it allows people who are religious fanatics to discount some peoples religious beliefs if it does not pass their smell test..  I see a lot of arguments coming up over people not understanding what non-sectarian really means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×