Stosh 3452 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Drinking is bad. Alcohol consumption contributes to much damage to families, children, and society. There is NOTHING redemptive or good about alcoholic beverages. The same argument can be made for guns and sex... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I had to think about this for a bit and have decided my take is that it's a non-starter - and not because drinking is bad, or alcohol is evil, or some other prudish reason for rejecting it. I am a big believer in "life long learning". If we offer every possible experience as a merit badge to Boy Scouts, what's left for adulthood? Since the drinking age is 21 anyway, why not leave things like brewing, wine making, and spirit making as continuing ed type classes for those over 21, when they can legally enjoy the fruits of their labors. After 16+ years of school, most young folk are "done with learning" but what 27 year old hipster wouldn't jump at the chance to learn how to brew their own beer? Maybe one who learned how to do it as a 14 year old Scout. Breweries do more than beer. Real root beer comes to mind. We teach auto repair, shooting sports, chemistry, etc. Heck in animal husbandry they took the beach balls off a bull. When you think about it there's a whole lot we teach these kids. Brewing, if done correctly, can be just as educational,while avoiding the obvious pitfalls. I have no problem if your unit visits a brewery. I was just pointing out that the district "brewing based event" that you used as an example was actually a bunch of Scouters getting together in a bar and drinking. It appears likely from the name of the establishment that there is a brewery there, but they weren't in the brewery part of the brewery, they were in the bar part of the brewery. So you might want to find another example. I get that. I was pointing out that such an event was being promoted on a BSA website. Hardly an arms length transaction. Drinking is bad. Alcohol consumption contributes to much damage to families, children, and society. There is NOTHING redemptive or good about alcoholic beverages.Irresponsible drinking does all that. There are those of us who can do,it responsibly. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 The same argument can be made for guns and sex... Under certain circumstances guns are useful tools and sex is essential and can be good for society. While it can be used as fuel or perhaps something like disinfectant or lab preservative, there is nothing about drinking alcohol that is useful or essential or good for society. Irresponsible drinking does all that. There are those of us who can do,it responsibly. Even for so-called 'responsible' drinkers, the risk of making mistakes, sometimes tragic ones, increases. As far as I'm concerned, people who think they're 'responsible' drinkers are people who 'got away with it' without hurting themselves or someone else...this time. It's a personal thing with me. At one time I felt differently and engaged in the 'responsible drinking' deception just like so many others. But as with any other substance that impairs thinking, there is no 'good' or 'safe' level of alcohol intake...only a legal pragmatic limit that we have sadly agreed that society must tolerate as a practical matter. Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Even for so-called 'responsible' drinkers, the risk of making mistakes, sometimes tragic ones, increases. As far as I'm concerned, people who think they're 'responsible' drinkers are people who 'got away with it' without hurting themselves or someone else...this time. It's a personal thing with me. At one time I felt differently and engaged in the 'responsible drinking' deception just like so many others. But as with any other substance that impairs thinking, there is no 'good' or 'safe' level of alcohol intake...only a legal pragmatic limit that we have sadly agreed that society must tolerate as a practical matter. Geesh, talk about a boat load of assumptions and generalizations. You might as well say all gay scouters are going to eventually be attracted to a scout. If people can control themselves and exercise good judgement it's possible to avoid the negative side of most anything. Not everyone is an idiot who drinks and gets behind the wheel. Some of us can actually be adults. And what better way to hammer this issue home to scouts early! Avoid the issue and you get kids who will sneak drinks early. Address the issue and kids learn. We follow this example in everything we do. Why turn a blind eye to this? Edited May 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Bad Wolf, I have formed my opinion based mostly on a personal experience from years back when a drunk behind the wheel nearly killed my entire family and society (and I see this as reflecting the lenience I see in your comments) basically let him off with a $200 fine while we suffered tens of thousands of $$ in medical expenses and years of pain and incomplete recovery. As long as society 'winks' at so-called 'responsible drinking' there will be lapses such as he had and more people like my family will suffer needless harm. And I haven't even touched on the harm that occurs in homes and the damage that results for families in those homes. In every case that first drink is a 'responsible' one. I admit that I'm speaking in terms of absolutes here. I make no apology. Link to post Share on other sites
pargolf44067 57 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) @@packsaddle, With your experience, I think you have every right to your feelings whether they're absolutes or not. Sorry that you had to go through that. Edited May 19, 2015 by pargolf44067 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Bad Wolf, I have formed my opinion based mostly on a personal experience from years back when a drunk behind the wheel nearly killed my entire family and society (and I see this as reflecting the lenience I see in your comments) basically let him off with a $200 fine while we suffered tens of thousands of $$ in medical expenses and years of pain and incomplete recovery. As long as society 'winks' at so-called 'responsible drinking' there will be lapses such as he had and more people like my family will suffer needless harm. And I haven't even touched on the harm that occurs in homes and the damage that results for families in those homes. In every case that first drink is a 'responsible' one. I admit that I'm speaking in terms of absolutes here. I make no apology. Sorry you experienced that. I too have had a similar experience. I've also had a close friend who had an issue with a gay scouter. Should we construe absolutes from that? Once we start declaring things as absolute simply based on an experience or two -- no matter how correct the feeling about those solutions may be -- we run the risk of losing credibility of our argument. I would no sooner blame all Muslims for 9/11, or all gays for same sex assaults in scouting, or all Germans for WWII, or all [insert your race here] are responsible for crime, or all [insert your party here] are responsible for the decay of the USA. Saying everyone who drinks is an accident waiting to happen is wrong. Yes, one can argue the correlation is high but that does not excuse the absolute. Edited May 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 There are those who's driving is obstructed by eating and drinking coffee, prescription and TOC drugs, smoking pot and cigarettes, changing the channel on the radio, playing with the heater/AC, talking on the cell phone, staying up too late not getting 8 hours of sleep. Crusades based on personal concerns are honorable, but not very practical. Nobody's going to go back to walking. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pargolf44067 57 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I think with what @@packsaddle went through, he has every right to his feelings, whether we agree with him or not. He is just saying that he feels that alcohol and drinking are bad and he doesn't agree with it. I don't necessarily agree with his absolute feelings on this, but I think he has the right to have those feelings. And to compare his feelings about this to feelings on whether a gay scouter should be involved seems kind of out there. He didn't say, at least that I saw, that people who drink shouldn't be leaders in scouts. Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) I think with what @@packsaddle went through, he has every right to his feelings, whether we agree with him or not. He is just saying that he feels that alcohol and drinking are bad and he doesn't agree with it. I don't necessarily agree with his absolute feelings on this, but I think he has the right to have those feelings. And to compare his feelings about this to feelings on whether a gay scouter should be involved seems kind of out there. He didn't say, at least that I saw, that people who drink shouldn't be leaders in scouts. No one is saying he has no right to his feelings. I acknowledged that. I have buddies that came back from two tours of Afghanistan hating Muslims. They have a right to those feelings too, however, the generalization that stems from such experiences are seldom, if ever, correct. That's all I was pointing out. As for the comparisons, those are legit. We all know people who have experiences and then generalize a group based on that experience. Those examples are just as valid as anyone who drinks being a potential drunk driver or something else. The analogy with gays was not that they shouldn't be in scouting. I think you missed the analogy. Saying all drinkers are potential drunk drivers is like saying all gay scouters are potential pedophiles. Edited May 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Saying all drinkers are potential drunk drivers is like saying all gay scouters are potential pedophiles. I think it would be more like saying that all people - not just gay people - are "potential pedophiles." Or potential murderers. Or potential doers-of-wonderful-things. "Potential" is being used in its broadest sense here, in which "anything is possible". However, laws and policies are usually not based on what is "possible", because then everything would be prohibited. There are risks just to getting up in the morning - and in not getting up. Edited May 19, 2015 by NJCubScouter Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) I think it would be more like saying that all people - not just gay people - are "potential pedophiles." Or potential murderers. Or potential doers-of-wonderful-things. "Potential" is being used in its broadest sense here, in which "anything is possible". However, laws and policies are usually not based on what is "possible", because then everything would be prohibited. There are risks just to getting up in the morning - and in not getting up. Analogy break down. Not all people drink. Not all people are gay. Drinking and being gay are the acts being scrutinized. Not all people who drink drive afterwards. Not all gay people are interested in young boys. Using your break down you are saying all drivers, whether they drink or not are potential drunk driving risks. I think this horse is dead. Edited May 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I wonder if the guy beating the horse had been drinking? Either way, he's walking now. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Gone 435 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I wonder if the guy beating the horse had been drinking? Either way, he's walking now. The horse was drinking, @@Stosh. That's why there was an accident. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LeCastor 641 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 This thread is no longer about "Program". If it continues to stray I will move it into the dark world of Issues and Politics. Link to post Share on other sites
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