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I think it's sad that I am LDS, in an LDS chartered group, and our cub committee member expressed disdain for how the church runs scouts. What the LDS church has done is to take scouts and adapt it for a program that was already set in place. The LDS church looked at the ideals of scouting and found them to fit with the church's ideals for boys, so adapted the program. It is not the same as traditional scouting, but I don't see how that part really matters- it just makes things more difficult with kids coming and going at different times of the year.

The adult staffing is problematic. People are called to be scout leaders, instead of volunteering themselves. These volunteers are supposed to "do their best", but often the called leaders don't want to be leaders, yet they accept the position anyway, and then the boys suffer. It's really frustrating. (Dealing with this in my own pack right now.)

We have few LDS units in our district and you just described exactly their situation. Also frustrating is that the District can't help the adult membership problem much because the church controls that function. I did get to train their SMs and enjoyed that, but they always seem to feel the stress of managing a program that few adults seem to want. Barry

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Again the conversation has fallen of the cliff.

 

OMG the US of A celebrates mostly Christian Holidays.........Wellllllll, Our founding fathers were, you guessed it, Christian. Most of the folks who immigrated here for the first two hundred years were, You guessed it right again, Christian.

 

If I lived in Egypt, I would not expect christmas to be a holiday nor Easter. Because their fore fathers were not christian.

 

 

Far as the LDS question goes......I was curious, Some folks just hate everyone because they are different. the LDS folks I know are decent, hardworking and stay to themselves. That is ok. Just don't understand the outrage I see written here from the Southeast and Northwest parts of our country.

KDD: Jefferson was Christian. Even though he openly expressed some honest doubts, he remained a practicing Christian:

 

"During the first winter, Mr. Jefferson regularly attended service on the sabbath-day in the humble church. The congregation seldom exceeded 50 or 60, but generally consisted of about a score of hearers. He could have had no motive for this regular attendance, but that of respect for public worship, choice of place or preacher he had not, as this, with the exception of a little Catholic chapel was the only church in the new city. The custom of preaching in the Hall of Representatives had not then been attempted, though after it was established Mr. Jefferson during his whole administration, was a most regular attendant. The seat he chose the first sabbath, and the adjoining one, which his private secretary occupied, were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him and his secretary."

 

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs

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Again the conversation has fallen of the cliff.

 

OMG the US of A celebrates mostly Christian Holidays.........Wellllllll, Our founding fathers were, you guessed it, Christian. Most of the folks who immigrated here for the first two hundred years were, You guessed it right again, Christian.

 

If I lived in Egypt, I would not expect christmas to be a holiday nor Easter. Because their fore fathers were not christian.

 

 

Far as the LDS question goes......I was curious, Some folks just hate everyone because they are different. the LDS folks I know are decent, hardworking and stay to themselves. That is ok. Just don't understand the outrage I see written here from the Southeast and Northwest parts of our country.

A subject for much debate...I will posit sitting in a pew is not evidence one is a Christian.

 

The previous section presents a different interpretation

 

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian[3], but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." "

 

Certainly not a Christian under the definition of TLUSA.

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Again the conversation has fallen of the cliff.

 

OMG the US of A celebrates mostly Christian Holidays.........Wellllllll, Our founding fathers were, you guessed it, Christian. Most of the folks who immigrated here for the first two hundred years were, You guessed it right again, Christian.

 

If I lived in Egypt, I would not expect christmas to be a holiday nor Easter. Because their fore fathers were not christian.

 

 

Far as the LDS question goes......I was curious, Some folks just hate everyone because they are different. the LDS folks I know are decent, hardworking and stay to themselves. That is ok. Just don't understand the outrage I see written here from the Southeast and Northwest parts of our country.

KDD is right. Jefferson was a Christian Deist (hence his creation of the Jefferson Bible). Several of our "founding fathers" were. Since Christian Deism rejects the divinity of Christ it is difficult to classify them as traditionally Christian. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_deism

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I think it's sad that I am LDS, in an LDS chartered group, and our cub committee member expressed disdain for how the church runs scouts. What the LDS church has done is to take scouts and adapt it for a program that was already set in place. The LDS church looked at the ideals of scouting and found them to fit with the church's ideals for boys, so adapted the program. It is not the same as traditional scouting, but I don't see how that part really matters- it just makes things more difficult with kids coming and going at different times of the year.

The adult staffing is problematic. People are called to be scout leaders, instead of volunteering themselves. These volunteers are supposed to "do their best", but often the called leaders don't want to be leaders, yet they accept the position anyway, and then the boys suffer. It's really frustrating. (Dealing with this in my own pack right now.)

I think it's great that LDS has adopted Scouting as a youth program. They might do things strangely and torture the leaders, but Cubs is a good program, and a large chunk of BSA Scouts are LDS. So while the Catholic Units mights hit the Scouting ideal more, LDS exposes more boys to the benefits of Scouting than other groups, despite being a very small religion.

 

As a result of LDS's process, they have a LOT of programs, whereas relying on the traditional process might have better programs, but they'd be much smaller.

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Again the conversation has fallen of the cliff.

 

OMG the US of A celebrates mostly Christian Holidays.........Wellllllll, Our founding fathers were, you guessed it, Christian. Most of the folks who immigrated here for the first two hundred years were, You guessed it right again, Christian.

 

If I lived in Egypt, I would not expect christmas to be a holiday nor Easter. Because their fore fathers were not christian.

 

 

Far as the LDS question goes......I was curious, Some folks just hate everyone because they are different. the LDS folks I know are decent, hardworking and stay to themselves. That is ok. Just don't understand the outrage I see written here from the Southeast and Northwest parts of our country.

In Israel, 12/25 is a work day, but Jewish holidays you've never heard of are national holidays. America is a Christian country, and our calendar follows the Western-Church calendar that is mostly the same between Protestants and Catholics.

 

The "traditional" Spring Break schedule in my district is Holy Week. Whenever they move it to accommodate testing schedules (and I think it's to punish parents that overwhelming support testing programs, so they punish us and blame testing), there is screaming and yelling with a fight between the elected school board and they professional staff.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with this. In Israel, they have a fall Holiday Break for Sukkot, and a Spring Break for Passover. Israel is a Jewish country, it follows the Jewish Calendar. America is a Christian country, it follows the Christian calendar. Egypt is a Muslim country, and follows the Muslim calendar.

 

There is NOTHING wrong with this.

 

However, BSA is a unique institution. It is religious, but non-sectarian. As a result, we are beyond "religious-friendly," we require religion and encourage you to be involved in your family's religion. Now, for people in many parts of the country, Religious = Christian (Catholic and non-Catholic Western varieties), so that is built into the program. In other parts of the country, LDS is a large religious community. In some parts, I'd imagine Eastern Christians form a chunk of the Units, with their schedule.

 

For the Cub Scout monthly core values, November, which includes election day and Thanksgiving, the core value is Citizenship, because that is the most american centric month of the school year. April, with Holy Week and Easter has Faith. For January, filled with "New Years Resolutions" based upon the Christian-centric calendar, we do Positive Attitude. There is nothing wrong with these things, but BSA is Christian centric because it is America and Religious, and America's calendar is Christian and its religious communities are Christian.

 

So it would be nice, if in a BSA context, SCOUTERS are aware that there are minority religions, we participate in BSA, and we do our best to participate. Insulting LDS units for breaking camp Saturday night, Jewish Units that won't attend Saturday functions (and MANY/MOST observant Jewish units don't camp over the Sabbath, my unit is unusual in that), Eastern Christian Units with their holidays, Buddhist and other eastern religious groups.

 

BSA's faith approach has a protestant lens. Religious invocations are very Christian, our talk of "Faith" in the Cub Scout program is VERY protestant and isn't how we talk about service to God in Judaism. But we all make it work because we believe in this program and think its great for our youth.

 

I don't understand the outrage, but a little religious sensitivity training would be good for everyone involved.

 

My Council in South Florida is based in Miami, with the population concentrated in Miami-Dade and Broward counties which are "majority-minority" counties. We have Latino groups, Black groups, a Jewish groups, PTA groups, LDS groups, and of course LOTS of Catholic and non-Catholic Christian groups. We all work together, try to be inclusive.

 

My wife is involved in Girl Scout leadership. Their Service Unit wants to include them in some activities, so they agreed to relocate to Sunday. Now as a Jewish group, we would do Sunday activities in the morning, because it leaves people free for family time in the afternoon. Obviously this create a problem for Church attendance, so they found out when the last Church services of anyone involved were over and set the even for 2 hours later. Now, if they had LDS Girl Scout Troops in their Service Unit, that would exclude them, and they'd move back to their original plan of a weeknight evening.

 

It is REALLY REALLY hard to make non-sectarian work, plus the reality that youth are in school Monday to Friday. Friday isn't good for Muslims, Saturday isn't good for Jews, Sunday morning isn't good for Christians, Sunday all day isn't good for LDS. Yet if you want to be non-sectarian and inclusive, you make it work.

 

My council/district is AWESOME, and is bending over backwards to include us. What makes a difference is that we got involved, showed up to meetings, and are volunteering to help.

 

So bigotry = bad

Inclusive = good

 

But inclusive is really hard, and leaves everyone a bit unhappy. You have to ask yourselves, do you want the LDS/Jewish/Muslim units involved. If so, you're going to be a little unhappy in the accommodations necessary. But the sign of a good compromise is that everyone is a little unhappy.

 

We have a full Unit program, having 2 District, and 1 Council activity to include us is a great addition. Making every event accommodate us would leave the other scouts unhappy, but we all make it out.

 

Some of the anti-LDS is straight bigotry. Some of it is NOT wanting to be inconvenienced at all. If your district is non-Catholic Christians, then including Catholics is pretty easy, the rest of us are hard. Do you need to change to accommodate our small groups? Of course not, but you can't refuse to accommodate LDS's religious values then complain that they don't show up at stuff.

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Pack18alex: Thank you for your explanation and personal observations. May I quote them when I do my " Scout's Own" orientation at IOLS? Yes, I do a little disabusing of the Christian BSA belief. PM me and I can email my curricullum to you.

 

I did a "regular" Woodbadge weekend, and two of my Patrol were LDS (didn't know that at first). Along with several other LDSers in the Troop, they went off on Sunday morning and met for their worship in a seperate corner of the camp. Our LDS brothers did not "pack up" on saturday evening, as has been mentioned above. . I noticed this and asked them about it. My Owl brother told me they had asked for and received a "special" permission from their Bishop, who was evidently their worship leader that sunday morning, at camp.

We did not have , to my knowledge, any jewish Scouters in my WB Troop, that session, but had two Muslims (they arrived Saturday) and I made a good friendship with them, they have asked me to come and assist (bugle!) at a couple of their special occassions.

 

Hey, Moderators.... Let's switch this thread to the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.... Oh, wait...

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Again the conversation has fallen of the cliff.

 

OMG the US of A celebrates mostly Christian Holidays.........Wellllllll, Our founding fathers were, you guessed it, Christian. Most of the folks who immigrated here for the first two hundred years were, You guessed it right again, Christian.

 

If I lived in Egypt, I would not expect christmas to be a holiday nor Easter. Because their fore fathers were not christian.

 

 

Far as the LDS question goes......I was curious, Some folks just hate everyone because they are different. the LDS folks I know are decent, hardworking and stay to themselves. That is ok. Just don't understand the outrage I see written here from the Southeast and Northwest parts of our country.

I'd just like to point out that atheists would be really easy to schedule.

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Pack18alex: Thank you for your explanation and personal observations. May I quote them when I do my " Scout's Own" orientation at IOLS? Yes, I do a little disabusing of the Christian BSA belief. PM me and I can email my curricullum to you.

 

I did a "regular" Woodbadge weekend, and two of my Patrol were LDS (didn't know that at first). Along with several other LDSers in the Troop, they went off on Sunday morning and met for their worship in a seperate corner of the camp. Our LDS brothers did not "pack up" on saturday evening, as has been mentioned above. . I noticed this and asked them about it. My Owl brother told me they had asked for and received a "special" permission from their Bishop, who was evidently their worship leader that sunday morning, at camp.

We did not have , to my knowledge, any jewish Scouters in my WB Troop, that session, but had two Muslims (they arrived Saturday) and I made a good friendship with them, they have asked me to come and assist (bugle!) at a couple of their special occassions.

 

Hey, Moderators.... Let's switch this thread to the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.... Oh, wait...

I'll see if I get get PM to work.

 

HOWEVER, in terms of "Scout's Own" that's back to my Western-Church lens. Nothing in Scout's Own is objectionable, it's all (around here) Old Testament stuff, but that entire structure of prayer that BSA uses simply is foreign to how Jews worship.

 

Traditional Jewish Prayer Service (used by Orthodox and Conservative Jews, with local community tweaks), on Shabbat

Morning Prayers (silent, said daily)

Morning "Communal Prayer" - read silently than repeated, there is one for the "week" (Sunday - Fri), and one for Shabbat (Sat) and a different one on holidays.

Weekly Torah Reading

Weekly Haftorah Reading

The Musaf Prayer Service: silent and then repeated by the leader: Mussaf is on "special" days (Shabbat, holidays, beginning of the month) to commemorate the special offering in the temple

 

Each community had minor additions over the centuries, but that's the Jewish prayer service going back at least 1500 years. On a Sunday of a campout, unless it's the first day of the lunar month, the prayer service would end after the morning communal prayer (there are a few ending prayers that we do, but short and not a major point of this).

 

Reform Judaism uses a prayer service that has more Lutheran influences, has room for innovation/sermons, etc., and drops the Mussaf service, but because of Reform's anti-BSA position, you'll have plenty of Reform Jews in BSA, but you won't have Reform Clergy in BSA.

 

The service is very structured, with portions for you to insert private prayers during the out loud repetition. But, the idea of a free ranging "prayer" to open a meeting, or in an inter-faith service is simply foreign to Judaism (with three fixed times to pray) and Islam (with five fixed times to pray) and a fixed prayer book.

 

So you can do a Scout's Own service with no references to Jesus and simply talking about the Almighty in a generic sense, and think you're being inclusive, but the very nature of the prayer service is Protestant.

 

If we hosted a Scouts Own service, translated the service into English, took out passages that might be deemed offensive to anyone that wasn't Jewish, and invited you guys to join us, it wouldn't make it non-sectarian. If your boys were there, listening to proclamations of God's Unity, followed by reading a few pages of thanks silently, listening to it repeated, then from the Torah/Haftorah, then doing the silent/repeated prayer again, none of you would find it non-sectarian, because it would still be a Jewish service.

 

When we do Grace before/after meals, it's not someone winging it, it's the blessings over wine, hand washing, and bread, followed by the after-meal prayers. When a Jew invites someone to lead "grace," it's the few lines at the beginning "inviting people" to join, it's not an opportunity to share your thoughts.

 

I say this not to give you an education on Jewish prayer, just wanted to explain that BSA's "prayer service" is non-sectarian Protestant. It removes things that might offend non-Protestants, but it's a Protestant service.

 

You might invite a Muslim to read a Islamic prayer (or a Jew to read a Jewish prayer), but you're not going to follow the Jewish Scouter in feet motions and silent prayers to be repeated by a Cantor, you're not going to prostrate yourselves on prayer rugs when led by the Muslim Scouter, you're just inviting us to participate in a non-denominational Protestant Service.

 

I say this not to complain, I LOVE how inclusive BSA is, and how we use that in our program to teach our boys how to weave their Jewish and American identities while learning to be good Americans AND good Jews at the same time. But 9 Protestants and 1 Catholic, whose religions share a history until a few hundred years ago, sitting around a table deciding to be inclusive is how you've created a very odd dynamic.

 

You are certainly welcome to bring my thoughts in, that's why I'm here. I learn so much from everyone here, especially Basement Dweller when he's not "kvetching" (it's a Yiddish word, there is no English word that quite captures kvetching).

 

When I was the Tiger Den Leader, our "faith" component was the Weather one, where we talk about the weather, things seen/unseen, and how that's like our faith in God. It was a fun exercise, but not really one that I would pick for Jewish youth. Jews focus on our service to God through deeds/Mitzvoth (observing commandments), NOT through "faith." We don't really talk much about faith per se, we talk about serving God, and assume that faith comes.

 

A little more faith talk might help keep Jews within the fold, so it's probably a good thing for us... but regardless, if I were running a Synagogue Youth Group for 1st Graders, we'd be learning the prayers before different foods, they prayer when you see lightening, etc., NOT "faith." That's my Protestant Lens comment, you don't even REALIZE that it's a Protestant Lens, because you assume every religion worships God like you do, just with different wordings and languages. We don't, we serve God entirely differently.

 

And, as the Jewish Scouter here, may I wish everyone a Shabbat Shalom, a wonderful Lord's Day/Sabbath, and a great weekend.

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Pack18alex: Thank you for your explanation and personal observations. May I quote them when I do my " Scout's Own" orientation at IOLS? Yes, I do a little disabusing of the Christian BSA belief. PM me and I can email my curricullum to you.

 

I did a "regular" Woodbadge weekend, and two of my Patrol were LDS (didn't know that at first). Along with several other LDSers in the Troop, they went off on Sunday morning and met for their worship in a seperate corner of the camp. Our LDS brothers did not "pack up" on saturday evening, as has been mentioned above. . I noticed this and asked them about it. My Owl brother told me they had asked for and received a "special" permission from their Bishop, who was evidently their worship leader that sunday morning, at camp.

We did not have , to my knowledge, any jewish Scouters in my WB Troop, that session, but had two Muslims (they arrived Saturday) and I made a good friendship with them, they have asked me to come and assist (bugle!) at a couple of their special occassions.

 

Hey, Moderators.... Let's switch this thread to the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.... Oh, wait...

Pack18Alex, it's interesting that you mention Catholics in your post as extemporaneous prayers really aren't part of our tradition either. Grace before and after meals are fixed prayers. Admittedly the structure of things has gotten much looser in the past 50 years or so and there is a lot more "interfaith" stuff than there used to be.

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Pack18alex: Thank you for your explanation and personal observations. May I quote them when I do my " Scout's Own" orientation at IOLS? Yes, I do a little disabusing of the Christian BSA belief. PM me and I can email my curricullum to you.

 

I did a "regular" Woodbadge weekend, and two of my Patrol were LDS (didn't know that at first). Along with several other LDSers in the Troop, they went off on Sunday morning and met for their worship in a seperate corner of the camp. Our LDS brothers did not "pack up" on saturday evening, as has been mentioned above. . I noticed this and asked them about it. My Owl brother told me they had asked for and received a "special" permission from their Bishop, who was evidently their worship leader that sunday morning, at camp.

We did not have , to my knowledge, any jewish Scouters in my WB Troop, that session, but had two Muslims (they arrived Saturday) and I made a good friendship with them, they have asked me to come and assist (bugle!) at a couple of their special occassions.

 

Hey, Moderators.... Let's switch this thread to the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.... Oh, wait...

Pack18Alex: Thank you for your thoughts and insights!

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Pack18alex: Thank you for your explanation and personal observations. May I quote them when I do my " Scout's Own" orientation at IOLS? Yes, I do a little disabusing of the Christian BSA belief. PM me and I can email my curricullum to you.

 

I did a "regular" Woodbadge weekend, and two of my Patrol were LDS (didn't know that at first). Along with several other LDSers in the Troop, they went off on Sunday morning and met for their worship in a seperate corner of the camp. Our LDS brothers did not "pack up" on saturday evening, as has been mentioned above. . I noticed this and asked them about it. My Owl brother told me they had asked for and received a "special" permission from their Bishop, who was evidently their worship leader that sunday morning, at camp.

We did not have , to my knowledge, any jewish Scouters in my WB Troop, that session, but had two Muslims (they arrived Saturday) and I made a good friendship with them, they have asked me to come and assist (bugle!) at a couple of their special occassions.

 

Hey, Moderators.... Let's switch this thread to the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.... Oh, wait...

Very interesting. My now gone step father was orthodox (though not practicing) and he told me some interesting stories about prayer. He volunteered for Viet Nam very early and credits his chants with keeping him alive. He claimed while on guard duty at night he would sit on a stump at the edge of camp and chant all night and the VC would get very close and listen to him, he could hear them moving around, but could never see them. They recognized it as religous an left him alone (while chanting). Different take on reverent.

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Pack18alex: Thank you for your explanation and personal observations. May I quote them when I do my " Scout's Own" orientation at IOLS? Yes, I do a little disabusing of the Christian BSA belief. PM me and I can email my curricullum to you.

 

I did a "regular" Woodbadge weekend, and two of my Patrol were LDS (didn't know that at first). Along with several other LDSers in the Troop, they went off on Sunday morning and met for their worship in a seperate corner of the camp. Our LDS brothers did not "pack up" on saturday evening, as has been mentioned above. . I noticed this and asked them about it. My Owl brother told me they had asked for and received a "special" permission from their Bishop, who was evidently their worship leader that sunday morning, at camp.

We did not have , to my knowledge, any jewish Scouters in my WB Troop, that session, but had two Muslims (they arrived Saturday) and I made a good friendship with them, they have asked me to come and assist (bugle!) at a couple of their special occassions.

 

Hey, Moderators.... Let's switch this thread to the "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.... Oh, wait...

Peregrinator, Catholic practices have certainly maintained their Judaic origins in a way that Protestant ones have not. My Catholic friends used to all complain that the post Vatican 2 Catholic Church was pretty much anything goes.

 

Sorry, I should have grouped Roman Catholics with Jews and Muslims and their fixed prayer books. Anglicans/Episcopalians are pretty High Church as well and have fixed liturgy in the was Protestants, especially the non-denominational evangelical variety, seem to have a lot more spontaneous prayer.

 

In that regard, it's Protestants/LDS vs. Jews/Catholics/Muslims... But in terms of scheduling, it's Western-Church (Protestant/Catholics) vs. everybody else, since everybody else is on a different schedule.

 

KDD, very cool, the stories I hear of people in dangerous situations that started saying the Shema (prayer of God's Unity and Divinity) amongst the most inspiring of Jewish stories.

 

It's utterly ironic, given the history of religions, how cooperative Catholics have become with Protestants on matters of religion... When our Catholic Scout Executive has the JCoS Shofar Award for his work helping the Jewish Committee at a prior post, you get that "only in America" set of goosebumps... :)

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Happened onto a broadcast of the National LDS meeting going on, or that went on. My local church broadcasts its service from the previous week normally at 9AM on our local public station; but the LDS program was running most of the day instead. Anyway, listened a bit to one of the major leaders talking about God's love and their interpretations. He really stressed, numerous ways, that ALL are deserving of God's love and forgiveness. Indirectly, he seemed to me to be reinforcing the idea that they, the church, needs to love ALL people, even the ones that are not of their faith or beliefs. Also noted that while it was an LDS program, the speakers sounded like any other Christian denomination in their references to God and Christ. In about a fifteen minute period, quoting from scripture, the Book of Mormon was mentioned only once very briefly; but the basic bible was core material.

 

Interesting, at least to me.

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Was reminded of this thread by a Facebook discussion that showed up in my newsfeed today:

A Mormon friend's church has a new Branch President. Before, there were so few boys (only 3) that the church wasn't bothering with Scouts, and the boys simply met on Weds nights. But the new Pres says they're to join Scouts and that's that, no ifs ands or buts. Her son had tried Scouts previously, didn't like it, and says if it's Scouts or nothing then he'll take nothing. She tried talking to the Pres, but he won't budge.

 

She posted this to a Mormon FB group asking whether there was any kind of recourse. As a non-Mormon, I find the responses a little absurd; the people who've replied are basically calling the boy an apostate and telling the mom that she's a bad parent:

 

Mormon 1: "If your sons only anchor at church is swayed by this, you still have much to instil in this young mans heart about what the gospel is and isn't. There will be plenty of times in the gospel where people will offend. This is never a reason to quit coming. It is the church that is true, the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the people! People are fallable and always will be! Have a family meeting with your Home teachers and maybe even the Branch President. Pray with your son for inspiration. Make him a part of the solution."

 

Mormon 2: "I agree with [Mormon 1], but would add that there will be times that the church asks us to do things that we may not understand at the time, or don't agree with. Following the prophet shouldn't come conditionally. It is similar to you wanting him to do chores, or homework, or other things he would prefer not to, but are necessary for him to learn how to be a better man in the long run. My husband had a similar experience in scouts- he didn't feel supported, and eventually quit. He wishes now that someone had pushed him to continue to get his eagle. The scouting program does so much more that teach you how to tie nits and build a fire. It teaches endurance, problem solving, self reliance, courage, working in a team as well as independence. As long as you don't think the scouting program will be hurting him (emotionally/physically), I would tell him, "It is what the prophet has asked young men to do, so you are going to do it. We'll look for the blessings together for obeying the prophet."

If you don't agree with me about the importance of the program, then perhaps give him a time frame- if he still hates it after one year, he won't have to keep going. Most likely by then he'll have bonded with the kids better and want to keep going."

 

(The mother replies to say she has spoken to the Pres and he's not interested in talking)

 

Mormon 1 again: "Re-read [Mormon 2]'s passage about obedience. Set the example for your son."

 

Mormon 3: "Scouting is done all throughout the church. That is something done in almost every ward, branch, and stake. There is a lot he can learn from the other boys, the leaders, and from the program itself. A lot of other churches do scouting too. Sounds like prayer is the best answer for you. Sometimes its praying for understanding, to soften someone else's heart, soften your own heart, or just for peace. There have been a lot of times the situation has not changed for me but I have changed my heart through prayer. Life is like that. There will always be things we don't like. We just have to go at them and everything else with prayer."

 

While these are just 3 random Mormons, which is not enough to scientifically apply their opinions to all Mormons, let's say they are representative (we know that LDS considers adult scouting positions to be a religious calling, which is the same tilt these people take). We quickly see how LDS units could easily get a bad wrap for not participating in the district or council, not fraternizing with non-LDS units if they do, leaving early, pumping out paper Eagles, etc. when they don't want to be there.

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it seems like with a compulsive particiaption for both adults and boys, it's probably the rare adult that wants to be a scout leader, and iffy at best with the boys. Frustration from non-LDS units isn't "bigotry" (grow up, and buy a thesaurus) it's a result of an intrinsic problem with the system.

 

In my district, the LDS units are happy to attend Cub Camp, and I have to spend time/resources on their Webelos the same as the non-LDS boys, but I'm not allowed to have their contact info or recruit them. That doesn't rub me raw because I'm a bigot, it rubs me raw because they're freeloaders and that's annoying regardless of why they're freeloaders.

I have no opinion of the LDS Boy Scouts or frustration with them because I've never seen one.

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