Basementdweller 608 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from I gotta laugh out loud here.... Putting boys who won't camp in the Order of the Arrow........The Honor society for Campers........... That has got to be the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 We have done the cave overnight thing in the past. The 'sanitary' issues are troubling enough to the boys and the leaders that we now opt to do the caving thing and then camp outside the cave in tents. Seems to remove all the ambiguity as well as the 'sanitary' concerns. The food is better too.Indoor plumbing, bunks and electricity......... I gotta go with Pack on this and it is a motel.... NO Camping night for you Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Scouter99 Sorry I was trying very hard not to go thereKDD spent three pages splitting hairs about exactly what under the auspice meant in another thread, so his scout can earn the award...... Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 Not every trip your troop goes on is going to meet muster for NOA, Camping MB, or OA. There just needs to be an understanding that when it comes time, you're not giving credit where it was not earned. I agree completely, BD. This is what the PLC, SM and Committee agree to. I talked to several key parents over the summer about the the low level of summer activity. They like it like that. Parent buy in is necessary to do anything as we rely entirely on them for transportation. Committee takes a very conservative view of two deep leadership clause on a day activity and I can't argue a more liberal interpretation because I can't find the justification, other than specifically mentioned day hikes and service projects. (Ongoing discussion in another thread) I have not flexed my IH muscle yet and have not seen any suggestion on this board that I do so. That would be interfering with the PLC and SM. So stuck with poor program. As I have said before, I will be following your advise and looking at other troops and have started that process. I have been warned by district level staff that there are very few troops in the area with very active programs, especially in summer. Later I will post some of the cringeworthy statements made by the parents at the meeting. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 So we are still stuck splitting hairs and words to meet the bare minimum requirements for rank advancement..... How about you don't worry about it and have the PLC plan an active program....More camping than the resident camp and a spring and fall campout. Brew.......Sorry your feeling inferior this morning..... In my opinion my troops program stinks......I have a bunch of parents that don't give a shit, My SPL has all to frequent and expensive Dumb A Attacks that cost me $$$$, example it is a bad idea for 18 boys to sit on a couch at the CO.....I get to buy a new couch for the CO. Did I mention Bed bugs, seems we have multiple youth with them now......Nice... The Patrol corners has degraded to 15 minutes of grab ass instead of planning for the next event........ They just can't seem to get the patrol patches finished or schedule their patrol hikes...... Son's patrol was put on notice last night that the man cave was closed until they complete the 6 tasks the patrol was assigned..... On and On..... I have challenges.......None of the is as silly as splitting hairs for advancement. Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from Although you will will never hear it stated explicitly, I really get the impression it is all about the Eagle and not the journey. Everyone likes to chide me over NOA, but I believe it is there to encourage a good program. Unfortunately BSA has filed it away in a bottom drawer. Few have heard of it, so it won't do them any good on the college app. So you suggest I somehow over ride the PLC, SM and Committee and deliver a better program. I am supposed to do this by myself and maybe the help of one or two others ? Another problems see is OA. Who is in OA ? The PLC and more except the NSP and PL. They have 4 other weekends a year to fit in. No problem dropping the August trip, a load off these parents back as they have an OA weekend to fit in early September. Where does that leave the non OA scouts ? Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from I think the NOA is a superior award to Eagle in many ways. But Eagle is the recognized Brand. So explain to me fitting in an Order of the Arrow weekend???? Why does this impact the parents???? Takes one to drive them to camp and another to pick them up???? for me it is 3 hours on friday night round trip and 3 hours on sunday round trip. So how many OA members do you have in the unit that are active????? New Scout Patrol could schedule their own Patrol camp out..... I would love to see my guys do it....Extra burden on me, but it is where I want to see the troop program go. Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from I do not know how many are active, but all of last years NSP that had the nights were elected this summer. I am told that is not always the case. BD we don't have a van like some other troops. You can only fit so many scouts and gear in a Camry for the 2 hour drive (with traffic) to camp. Sure NSP could schedule their own campout. Need 2 deep leadership and a SM, committee, and parents to support it. I am only one person. One less weekend that effects fall ball and all the other sports. Seems nuts to me the OA only requires 15 camping nights including resident week, but what do I know. I am an idiot, remember ? Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from We don't have a van either.....We can borrow the CO's if it isn't being used for other things. So your troop is small less than 10 right??? So how does an entire NSP get elected to the OA, especially with the program you describe??? Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 KDD, I am having a really hard time understanding your concern or for that matter what is the point. Your PLC has planned the trip probably not knowing or caring whether or not it "counts" for anything. It sounds like they are trying to be creative and are trying to do cool boy stuff. The mental image of the parents and IH sitting around analyzing each move the boys and Scoutmaster makes is a mind bender. I cannot recall our IH ever discussing scout matters other than to thank us for Scout Sunday. No offense intended just trying to understand where you are coming from About 19 attended summer camp, none over 13. The last years NSP was big, maybe 12. All eligible who attended camp were elected. They had 14-15 months to get the camping in. 5 nights resident camp last summer and 10 short term nights plus 1st class is all that is needed. BTW BD, I am positive I will not need to lawyer or pencil whip for my son to get Eagle if he chooses to follow through. It appears the PORs in this troop are mostly paper with the exception of SPL. Been working on gathering my quotes from the meeting. Should be good. Been tough looking at other troops as they have been on summer break. Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 We have done the cave overnight thing in the past. The 'sanitary' issues are troubling enough to the boys and the leaders that we now opt to do the caving thing and then camp outside the cave in tents. Seems to remove all the ambiguity as well as the 'sanitary' concerns. The food is better too.Called the Bat Cave and spoke to Alfred. Lighting, flushing toilets, serve you breakfeast in the morning. $32 per head, 4 hour drive. Sounds more like a B&B than a hotel. I wonder if the Scout Shop has a B&B patch. If not the AC can check with GSUSA This trip was done before so at least a couple of adults know about the facilities and somehow thinks this counts as camping. Sigh. I don't think WAAG bags and urine bottles will save us from this one. On the bright side the boys will have to hike it in........400 feet from the parking lot. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4345 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 sleeping in a cave is reasonable for campout as others have stated however if it is a hotel in a cave thats a different story. Even if you only camp as a troop 4 or 5 times a year you can still get the merit badge it will just take longer. If you think it too low ask the SM an PLC to step it up. Its not a race to eagle. And ... none of them have to run for O/A. Make it very clear to the BOYS that it should not count for their camping nights. Don't explain it to them. Have them REFER to THE BOOK. List their campouts. Cross off any that don't match the requirements. Make it clear that their list is on their honor. *Reference* the first step in learning any scout skill -- including tracking advancement. And yes, as IH, you have the right to do that because your people are paying for the roof and the lights. Make it clear that you are perfectly fine with them not having a program that gives a boy a fair chance at 15 legitimate camping nights every two years, but you are not fine with calling chicken tracks eagle feathers. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4345 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I can't imagine SM minding you stepping in on this. (Especially if parents are giving him cross-talk.) I've unilaterally altered hike plans when I realized the PLC wanted to wrap it up after 3 miles while the youngn's wanted (and were fit) to hike at least twice that. SM and ASMs didn't balk (I knew they wouldn't, unless there was a serious issue that I hadn't considered.) My line: "When you get home, you can cry to Momma that Mr. Q made you hike the whole afternoon and kept you from idling away at camp. Let me know what she says." Link to post Share on other sites
King Ding Dong 540 Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 sleeping in a cave is reasonable for campout as others have stated however if it is a hotel in a cave thats a different story. Even if you only camp as a troop 4 or 5 times a year you can still get the merit badge it will just take longer. If you think it too low ask the SM an PLC to step it up. Its not a race to eagle. I am IH because I am PTO president, so I am not paying any bills (except my taxes). If this is what the boys really want to do, I am fine with that as IH. As a parent this is not the scouting program I envisioned for my son. They will get 15 legitimate camping nights in one year, just barely. This kind of program may be good for the boys that play 3-5 team sports a year. That is not my son at this point in his development. I can take my boys family camping and such, but that isn't scouting, and in my mind lockins, B&B, and cabins are not either. There is more of chance of tornados and severe thunderstorms on any given weekend than there is a of sub 10 degrees nights in winter here. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 KDD, could you please reveal the state that this cave is in? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites
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