BSA and Dissent

[Jason OK 10]

I would like everyones feedback.

Boleta,

 

Scouting is changing.....I never said it wasn't. Scouts has lost its NADS! When I look at the imagery the Scouts promote we look like wimps! Or a bunch of Dorks in uniform. I joined scouts when it seemed more rugged! If membership is declining it's because the scouts image needs to toughen up. You have to admit it. Did ROCKY train at Bally's in a fancy work-out suit or did he train in an old school gym? The uniform is finewe just do a bad job of advertising ourselves. If all you see are trees then back up and look at the forest! Because it is people in higher positions doing nothing that contributes to our decline. What I said was SCOUTS should not change. If the B.S.A does not stand up to activist judges and people who are too liberal minded you can kiss the B.S.A good-bye. I also think women should have nothing to do with Boy Scout Leadership....it messes up the whole concept. The rules get too complicated. Cub Scouts should have more men involved.......Sometimes I think Cub Scouts is an excuse for women to get together and talk crap about their husbands. Boys need fathers. Girls need mothers. And I don't mean gay parents. I have noticed cub scouts with all women leadership act very feminine and cubs that have more men act more manly. Sometimes being Politically correct is not the correct thing to do. Trust me..I love and respect women..I just like things simple.

 

[boleta 10]

Jason OK

First, Rocky was a work of fiction.

Second, BSA did stand up and was supported by the "liberal" judges when they won the right to define the program with regards to atheism and homosexuality.

Third, you sure seem angry.

[dsteele 20]

Hands in my pockets, head both down and up, this old Scouting veteran wanders away from the light of the campfire shaking his head. He's seeking guidance.

 

Do I blast the youth pastor who calls us names or blast the man who bemoans the role women have rightfully taken in Scouting and tells off color, but not quite over the line, jokes online?

 

Or do I try to reconcile these things.

 

I'm not sure. I find the answers with God in the woods.

 

Odds are, I'll come out somewhere in between.

 

Dissention is one thing. It is respectible and acceptable. Dis-respect and name calling are not respectible. They are unnacceptable.

 

I'll make my decision and get back to you.

 

Notice that I have called no one names in this post. I used only titles -- pastor and man. The descriptors following the title were only representations of what has been posted.

 

I'll be back.

 

Unc.

[BadenP 93]

TrailPounder

 

Your last post to me just proves my point, look who is name calling. You know nothing about my background so your comments are slanderous, untrue, as well as unfounded. I think it is you who needs to learn to be civil.

 

UNC - I will send you a book on how to write poetry, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Jason OK 10]

Boleta,

 

Rocky was a fictional movie about a non-fictional boxer.

 

Unc,

 

I respect and admire your control. but do not use the opportunity to heighten your sense of being. Please realize I noted in my post what I was saying was not politically correct. And I am certainly not a youth pastor. (if referring to me) When you do make your call remember I laid myself out there to share what a lot of adults are thinking. And as a Christian I am not perfect. I know it is easier for a non believer to pick apart a believer so please spare me the imbursement. (Regardless if you believe or not) There was no name calling......I used descriptive terms to point an observation. What I am more curious about hearing is "Do we as adults long for the Norman Rockwell days of scouting?" Boys were clean cut.....and clean dressed. And men could be thanked for a large part of that assured upbringing. I remember the first Scout Meeting I ever attended....the boys all had a sense of respect that only a man has late in his life. I came from a broken home were I had no male role model so maybe I am more observant in this area. I can definitely see it becoming more and more a problem in todays boys. More and more moms making the decision to be a single parent. I can't remember the last time I saw a couple of boys playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians. I would be afraid to let my kids play that way in front of other parents in fear that I would be reported to child services. Oh no future serial killers. I hope this makes the issue clearer.

(This message has been edited by Jason OK)

[Bob White 20]

Boleta,

History has not supported your theory. There were years back in the late 60s early 70s when scoutings number dropped significantly. They did alter the skills and advancement and even the look of the handbook. But the values of scouting were not altered.

 

You say that scouting needs to change as times change and scouting has, as even you admit. So I am unsure of your point. If you are saying that the BSA has to change its values in order to ekeep membership high in the future, then I think you have underestimated both the BSA's dedication to the values of scouting and the core values held by the majority of people.

 

To say that values have to change with the future ignores the values that have not altered in thousands of years even though societies have changed over and over again.

 

 

[Hunt 11]

Organizations do change, sometimes in very signficant ways. Sometimes the changes may result from a desire to garner public favor, and other times the changes are a reflection of a general shift in societal attitudes. At yet other times, the changes may come from the work of a few people who feel strongly and successfully convince others that a change is needed. For BSA, I assume changes in the uniform, for example, are largely the first kind of change--the uniforms are redesigned periodically to make them attractive to potential Scouts. Nothing wrong with that. For other changes--such as having female leaders--I don't know enough--it could be a mixture of reasons. I will agree with those who say that a declining membership is not a valid reason to change core values of the organization. On the other hand, I would suggest that a strong membership and a long history are not reasons to avoid questioning policies on ethical grounds.

[LovetoCamp 9]

BadenP, I'm still chuckling about your pomposity. The Scouters you insulted (me excluded)with your tirades have forgotten more about Scouting than you'll know and then to find you're a youth pastor. Flamed by the youth pastor. That's just funny. I read your hissy fit to Mrs. Trail Pounder and she was in stitches. We were laughing so hard that we woke up kids, who started laughing at us laughing, and then the weiner dog howled, and we started laughing some more. So, even though I think you're a tick off balance, well, more than a tick, you've brought laughter to our home.

 

 

[boleta 10]

Hunt, the voice of reason strikes again.

[Jason OK 10]

Boleta,

 

Did you not read Bob White's post?

[NeilLup 13]

Hunt makes these very good points:

 

"I will agree with those who say that a declining membership is not a valid reason to change core values of the organization. On the other hand, I would suggest that a strong membership and a long history are not reasons to avoid questioning policies on ethical grounds."

 

I would suggest, however, that declining membership, other factors, and even passage of time are exceedingly valid reasons to assess carefully what the core values of an organization really are and what instead represents the interpretation and practice of core values at one time and place which may not necessarily be correct and appropriate at another time and place.

 

Probably the best example I have heard relates to our promise to "do our duty to Country." During the time of Vietnam, there were those who made that promise and believed that they should join the military, fight and perhaps die for what the leaders of the country were espousing. There were others who made that same promise who believed that their obligation to our country and to American ideals required them to oppose the administrations and to oppose the war.

 

Many members of those groups believed, sincerely, that they were doing their "duty to their country." And certainly there were those in both groups who had some insincerity (avoiding the dangers of war on one hand, avoiding the penalties of avoiding the draft on the other hand.) But for all of us at that time and place, it forced a reassessment and reevaluation of what our core values really were and of what our behavior and actions should be in light of those core values.

[boleta 10]

NeiLup

More importantly, many Vietnam War supporters felt that if you did NOT support the war, that you were not supporting your country. This same argument is being made today by those in favor of the Iraq War. Few disagree with going after the Taliban and Al quaida in Afghanisan. But valid disagreement exists for persuing the war in Iraq. Some are now saying that being against the war in Iraq means you are giving solace to the enemy and failing to do duty to country. The greatness of this country is that it allows dissent. Dissenters are also patriots, in that they are willing to stand against great criticism for the sake of their country.

 

I never said the values of BSA needed to change. I have never argued for changing the Scout Oath or Law. I have indicated in these forums that atheists have no place in BSA because of the basic conflict of the Oath. However, if religious scouters do not follow the Oath and Law, they too should not belong. Those that do not respect the beliefs of others should not belong (an interpretation of reverence that HAS changed over the years, Bob).

You could argue that scouts that are not physically strong have violated the Oath as surely as those that are not morally straight. I assure you, Baden-Powell was not thinking about homosexuals when he placed this in the Oath. That interpretation was added recently. I guess we throw the fatties out too.

[Jason OK 10]

Boleta,

 

Seriously. I just wanted to clear something up from your last post...seriously.

 

Are you a Fat Homosexual? Just kidding. ;p You didn't mean that ...right?

 

Should we kick out boys that are over weight?

 

boleta

f.

1. - admission ticket

2. (MILITARY) - billet

3. (vale) - voucher

4. AMERICA: - ballot

 

Which one represnts your name?(This message has been edited by Jason OK)