Reverence in Scouting

[2Eagle 10]

Jason OK,

In answer to your original question...We do grace at meals and have a service on Sunday mornings. Never had any push-back from boys or parents.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Jason,

 

About your comment about "closing the discussion," next one in is a rotten egg, etc.:

 

I speak only as an individual member of the forum, but one who has observed past attempts by various individuals to say "Let's not talk about this anymore" or "Let's not talk about this anymore in this thread" or "Let's only discuss this subject in a certain way" or whatever. It almost never works, and that is true regardless of whether the person making the "request" is the person who started the thread or not.

 

The one exception to all this, of course, is Scouter-Terry, the man who owns the place, but in the past he has taken action to close a discussion only in what I would call "extreme" circumstances, and this thread hasn't even gotten halfway to "extreme" yet. I and I think most of appreciate the "firm but gentle hand" he employs in allowing us to discuss just about anything we want, in the way we want, acting only when things are really getting out of hand, such as someone basically monopolizing the forum in an abusive manner. (Not mentioning any names, of course.) Other times he takes more "measured" actions, such as moving this thread (I believe it was this one) from Open Discussion to Issues and Politics, which was a good move for which I thank Terry.)

 

So in other words, if your account name is not Scouter-Terry, you can ask and beg and plead all you want for discussions to be limited in some way, but experience suggests that you (or anyone else) will basically be ignored by the group as a whole. It's nothing personal, it's the way things work.

[packsaddle 753]

Bob White,

"In the unit you serve is a scout ever asked to site examples of how he lives by the Oath and Law?"

Yes

"For instance is he ever asked how he is helpful, or how he is trustworthy?"

Yes

"What about Reverent, or is that simple passed over?"

No

"Is he asked about his oath to help others at all times?"

Yes

"Is he asked how he performs his duty to God or is that bypassed?"

Yes/no (you actually asked two questions at the same time.)

"What activities does the unit do to help others at all times, or to keep the scout physically fit?"

Service projects, physically active outdoor and indoor activities.

"What about his opportunities to do service to God?" Please clarify your understanding of service to God...as opposed to a church or similar organization.

"You say he just has to sign the application and can change his mind anytime. What exactly do you mean by that?"

Signing the application, I believe, is an explicit agreement with the rules of the organization. They are free to quit at any time.

Rooster7 made an insightful observation in another post somewhere in which he observed that one person cannot know what is in the heart or mind of another person. I am suggesting that if a boy is interrogated carefully as to his success at meeting this aspect of the program, most of what will be detected are his activities. His thoughts will remain unknown to the interrogator regardless of any opinion the interrogator forms. I simply recognize this reality and offer encouragement to the boy to do the right thing regarding his faith, as determined by his family. I feel that the family has priority in such matters. Perhaps you disagree. Does this answer your question?

[Jason OK 10]

Thank you 2Eagle. Thats what I was trying to get from this post.

[Bob White 20]

Sorry I thought this was included in my first post.

 

We have a Chaplain and a Chaplains Aid, We start every meeting and meal with a prayer. Every Court of Honor has an invocation. Our scouts are encouraged to seek out the religious service award of their faith, We have a special scout service each February. We do service projects for the church that charters the unit. We have campfire conversations about Duty to God, and include questions regarding Duty to God and Reverence to God in Scoutmaster Conferences and boards of review. It has never caused a problem that we know of.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter 1389]

A couple of days ago, boleta said:

 

Maybe, like the atheist that mouths the words, "duty to God" and the homosexual who says "morally straight", those that do not respect the beliefs of others may continue to participate in scouting for other reasons- service to community and youth and so on. But they are still hypocrites.

 

There are several things going on in these sentences, but I want to pick out 2 things that I think you (boleta) are saying:

 

One, you seem to be saying that a "homosexual" member of the BSA who recites the Scout Oath including the words "morally straight," is being a hypocrite. I don't see how they would be a hypocrite unless they believed that a gay person cannot be "morally straight." Many people, both "gay" and "straight," believe that a gay person can be "morally straight" -- or not be -- just as a heterosexual person can be "morally straight," or not be. So, yes, a gay person who thinks being gay is immoral but is gay anyway, and is a member of the BSA and takes the Scout Oath, is a hypocrite. I suspect that that group of hypocrites could probably meet in a phone booth. By the way, whether they are a hypocrite or not, they are only breaking a rule if they are openly gay -- and if they are openly gay, they probably aren't around to break the rule.

 

Two, you seem to be saying that an atheist who recites his (or her which I guess would apply to female Scouters; I don't know what Oath or Law Venturers follow)... that sentence is getting out of hand. You seem to be saying that an atheist who recites his or her Duty to God and a Scout is reverent, is a hypocrite. True, as long as the person is really an atheist, meaning they are really sure there is no God, under any name or number or configuration or attributes or whatever, and they are pledging their duty to something they are sure does not exist.

 

I get a little sensitive about this for reasons I have mentioned previously, but I guess this is a good place to repeat it. I think there are a fair number of teenagers who in rebelling against their parents, the "establishment" (I'm from the 60's) or whatever, decide that "God doesn't exist." I was one of them. Probably around the age of 16, I didn't think "God" existed, and therefore assumed that I was an "atheist," though whether I ever actually told anyone I thought I was an atheist, I don't recall. And by the way, I was a Boy Scout, reciting the Oath and Law on a weekly basis. Whether the contradiction occurred to me is another thing I don't remember; in all likelihood, in my mind I subconsiously added "if any", after "God." And what I slowly came to realize, probably in my early 20's, is that the "God" I did not think existed was the only one I had been exposed to, that is the God depicted in the Bible (specifically the Old Testament.) As a teenager, it didn't really occur to me that I could believe in a "higher power" or "supreme being" or "force" or a "God" that had the attributes that I thought God has, unlimited by what may appear in a book. It is my understanding from various articles that these days, when a Boy Scout decides he is an "atheist," he is "counseled" to determine whether that is what he really is, and if he can acknowledge a belief in a "supreme being" or "higher power" of any kind, then he is not considered an atheist, and can continue to pledge his "duty to God" and be considered "reverent." Some in this forum have said that that sort of counseling invites a Scout to be deceptive and "make up" a belief in God just to remain a Scout. From my personal experience, I'd say that while that might happen, it also might happen that the boy discovers that he is not actually an atheist. Though I can't prove it, I think that if today's attitude had prevailed thirty years ago, I would have taken the second option. As it was, it took until I was out of Scouting to get my confusion resolved enough to where I realized that I was not, and never was, really an atheist.

 

Was I a hypocrite? Maybe. But I think that in order to be a hypocrite, you need to be clear in your own mind as to what you actually believe, and in my confused teenage years, I don't think that was the case. I do know that I believe in something "higher" now, but it still isn't really the "God" I was raised to believe in.