packsaddle 753 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 OK, I'm trying to find out the origin of the idea that life is sacred. Help me out. What is the origin of that idea? What do we mean by 'sacred', in that context? Edit: BS87, life does NOT begin at conception. Life is a continuum. Human sperm and eggs are both human AND alive. We choose 'conception' to be a starting point out of convenience or some other reason I'm unaware of, but it isn't the beginning of life.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 BS-87, Did you intend this to mean the way it sounds? "Whether the act is forceful and a crime, or loving and with the intent of procreation, the decision to engage in the act is a decision that stays with a person forever." If an act is forceful and a crime (ie rape), did the victim really make a decision to engage in the act and should the victim really be required to accept a lifetime committment based on a decision that she did not make or have any opportunity to have any input on? Heck, should she even be required to make just a 9-month committment when she made no decision to engage in the act? Do you really think we should compound one decision made for her against her will with another decision being made for her against her will? Is that really what you're trying to get across? Link to post Share on other sites
BS-87 30 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Sorry, thanks for pointing that out Calico as that's not how it was intended to sound. I was meaning to get to the point that decisions surrounding sex have lifelong consequences and rightly so, making all decisions around it weighty. In the case of forceful and as a crime, I meant to say the imprisonment and lifelong registry are a lifelong consequence but erased that before posting because I thought that equated pregnancy to prison. In the case of rape, I feel that's an extreme circumstance that makes it hard for me to think abortion should be completely outlawed. Which is difficult to swallow considering an innocent life ends because of the decisions of someone committing a terrible crime. I guess if there's a justification, it's that the rapist is responsible for the death of the child and I could support an additional punishment on rapists for rapes that result in abortion. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4349 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 There is no way to know if this is a reversal in a decades-long trend. The last report of decline is 3 years old. You may wait for that statistic to be published here: http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/Abortion.htm It will take some time for the CDC to integrate Planned Parenthood's 2010-2012 numbers from those of other institutions reporting to their respective states in the same year. My bet is the trend may continue to decline, maybe level off. Regardless, PP's uptick most likely represents taking up the slack from other abortion providers who have gone out of business. Or, those other providers may be slow to report or have stopped reporting outright. However, I think it's safe to assume for every 10 scouts we serve, there will continue to be 2 who we've missed because of elective abortions. Or, phrased in economic terms implied by WE61, every couple of kids who can marginally afford make it to camp or whatever super-activity owe a debt of gratitude to a couple of kids who are no longer a burden to our society -- thanks to the brave decisions of their mums and dads. (This message has been edited by qwazse) Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 "In the case of rape, I feel that's an extreme circumstance that makes it hard for me to think abortion should be completely outlawed." Here is where OGE is consistent. He (and the Catholic Church) has an absolute position and makes no exception. I don't agree with his political solution but I do understand that he is being consistent and honest about this. If "all life is sacred" then that is an absolute that cannot be breached without violating whatever is there to 'back up' the idea of sacred life in the first place. You can't stake out an absolute position like this, then attempt to weasel out of it when it gets uncomfortable, AND claim to honest about it. I respect OGE's honesty. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2781 Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 >>When we start acting like life is sacred, ..........., then we can pull out the life is sacred card and have it mean something. Link to post Share on other sites
Peregrinator 85 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I guess American babies aren't good enough for Americans....maybe some church can pick up the slack. Most American babies are never put up for adoption -- those who aren't wanted are aborted. Link to post Share on other sites
BS-87 30 Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 >>You can't stake out an absolute position like this, then attempt to weasel out of it when it gets uncomfortable, AND claim to honest about it. I respect OGE's honesty. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2781 Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 >>I respect OGE's honesty. Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Honesty, Eagledad. He staked out an absolute position and sticks with it no matter what. He doesn't try to 'spin' some rationalization for violating that position just because things are uncomfortable. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Here is where OGE is consistent. He (and the Catholic Church) has an absolute position and makes no exception. I don't agree with his political solution but I do understand that he is being consistent and honest about this. If "all life is sacred" then that is an absolute that cannot be breached without violating whatever is there to 'back up' the idea of sacred life in the first place. You can't stake out an absolute position like this, then attempt to weasel out of it when it gets uncomfortable, AND claim to honest about it. I respect OGE's honesty. Yah, perhaps. Or perhaps there is a second threshold between what we believe is morally right and what we believe da state should punish. OGE's Catholic Church once experimented with having the state enforce doctrinal purity. I reckon they still feel strongly that their doctrinal positions were (and are) morally right, but they came to a realization that that particular moral right was not somethin' that the state should be empowered to enforce. They moved to a position of freedom of conscience on those issues. Christian folks should try to convince people of da rightness of their doctrine through evangelization, not state inquisition. I personally believe that an individual human's life begins at conception, or as close to that as makes no nevermind. I'm reasonably well convinced of that, though one must always be humble before God and His creation. That's not to say I necessarily agree that I want da state engaged in some sorts of enforcement actions. It strikes me that cases of rape, incest, and risk to da mother's life are matters where evangelization and loving support are called for, not state intervention. Same with a young lady who has just discovered that her indiscretion has led to a surprise. We are called first and always to charity, not to judgment. For me, I think if both sides would stop shoutin' at each other long enough to be thoughtful, most of us could agree that da state's definition of the start of life might be best set the same as the state's definition of the end of life, eh? Heartbeat and brain activity. We Christians should be humble enough to recognize that we don't know when a person is "ensouled" by the Almighty, and that perhaps da soul joins the body when da conditions are right, just as it departs when the conditions are not. More importantly, though, we should recognize that limits on the power of the state are a wise and prudent thing that we should have learned by now from our history, eh? Christ never invoked Caesar to enforce God's law. He called on people to change their hearts. That's truly the way of Christians. Such a definition allows a bit of time for a young woman to struggle with da moral questions without fear of the state, where the example and love and care of folks can make all the difference in a personal choice. At da same time, it would afford considerably greater protection for unborn children at the ages when most of us start to think of this more as a choice of convenience. Leave a self-defense exception in place for da full pregnancy when the life of the mother is at risk, which I believe even da Catholics recognize (though they might promote da parent sacrificing for her child as the higher calling). Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2781 Posted January 9, 2013 Author Share Posted January 9, 2013 >> Honesty, Eagledad. He staked out an absolute position and sticks with it no matter what. He doesn't try to 'spin' some rationalization for violating that position just because things are uncomfortable. Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Please Please Please, enough about me, lets talk about you what do you think about me? Link to post Share on other sites
Papadaddy 121 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Say what you will about the late Jerry Falwell, but he had the only true "solution" that I ever heard. He had a standing offer to any pregnant girl...come to Liberty University and we will take care of you and your baby and give you a free college education with room and board...just don't have an abortion. Don't know if the offer still stands, but he was the only one I heard of who "put his money where his convictions" were. Does any other church have similar programs, other than to declare it a sin and move on? I don't see any orphanages around any more... Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 There is one such program in the former Convent of the parish of which I am a member http://www.marysshelter.org/ Link to post Share on other sites
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